And now Buckley has come around

[Richards 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Perhaps a larger contingent of international forces might be usefull in two ways.

Ha ha, after we pissed all over our allies. (remember "Freedom Fries"?).

I am one of your allies. I am Canadian. I think that the "Freedom fries" incident and other similar incedents were a long due response by the average American, to the constant barrage of Anti-American nonsense they are subjected to. A great deal of this nonsense came from France, Germany and yes Canada. I have on numerous occasion witnessed Americans in my country being treated poorly by my fellow citizen because they were Americans, and for the record I did speak up. If the entire world condemned Canada regardless of what we did or didn't do I would likely develop a "screw you " attitude to everyone else also. Do not forget that immediately after Sept 11 many of your so called allies immediately started blaming it on US foreign policy.
Richards

That is absolutely untrue. You have already expressed a disdain for history and your attitude shows.


And on behalf of the American people, I thank the world for its outpouring of support. America will never forget the sounds of our National Anthem playing at Buckingham Palace, on the streets of Paris, and at Berlin's Brandenburg Gate.

We will not forget South Korean children gathering to pray outside our embassy in Seoul, or the prayers of sympathy offered at a mosque in Cairo. We will not forget moments of silence and days of mourning in Australia and Africa and Latin America.
George W. Bush, 9/20/2001


The civilized world is rallying to America's side.
George W. Bush, 9/20/2001


The North Atlantic Council met tonight to express its solidarity with the United States of America at this moment of great tragedy and mourning. Our deepest sympathy lies with the victims, their families and all Americans. The NATO nations unanimously condemn these barbaric acts committed against a NATO member state. The mindless slaughter of so many innocent civilians is an unacceptable act of violence without precedent in the modern era. It underscores the urgency of intensifying the battle against terrorism, a battle that the NATO countries - indeed all civilised nations - must win. All Allies stand united in their determination to combat this scourge.

At this critical moment, the United States can rely on its 18 Allies in North America and Europe for assistance and support. NATO solidarity remains the essence of our Alliance. Our message to the people of the United States is that we are with you. Our message to those who perpetrated these unspeakable crimes is equally clear: you will not get away with it.

The North Atlantic Council, 9/11/2001

The overwhelming majority of allies including all of NATO declared total solidarity with the US after 9/11 and, supported the overthrow of the Taliban. The divergence followed the Bush/Blair lies and subsequent misadventures in Iraq, which has been a self-imposed clusterfuck by the US/UK.

I can only go by what I have seen. There are a lot of people who unfairly hate the US, and condemn everything they do. I simply felt that I could see where this could lead to some backlash on the part of Americans. I was not trying to diminish the genuine offers of support offered by people around the world, who sympathized with the US for that terrible event.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[kallend 1,683]

It's a good job someone around here has a long memory or the right would drown us in BS.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

Quote

So congratulations to the efforts of those of the fifth column. All the media hype and hysteria about early withdrawl, berating our troops etc once again you have suceeded. I truely hope you are proud of yourselves. Here's a big pat on the back!!!

And then the ironic signature Don't believe everything you think.



This thread is beginning to vaguely remind me of Michael Shermer's explanation of "Why Smart people believe weird things?"

Quote

why do smart people believe weird things? My Easy Answer will seem somewhat paradoxical at first:

Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons.

Nice little personal insult.

I'm just celebrating with you lefties that my prediction came true too.

for everyone

CONGRATULATION!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm sure you guys are proud.......

[opurt 0]

"January thru September 2006 will be the peak period of the insurgency --and the bottom rung of the new Iraq. The positive trend lines following the January 2006 elections (if they continue) will likely permit the withdrawal of substantial US combat forces by late summer of 2006."

- General Barry Mcaffrey, USA (Ret.)
- Memo to Senate Foreign Relations Committee 18 July 2005, reporting on his trip to Iraq, 4-11 June 2005

On page 3 of the report, in Section 4, titled "Top CENTCOM Vulnerabilities", he lists number 1 as:

"1 st – Premature drawdown of U.S. ground forces driven by dwindling U.S. domestic political support and the progressive deterioration of Army and Marine manpower. (In particular, the expected melt-down of the Army National Guard and Army Reserve in the coming 36 months)"

Just a few points to keep in mind.

[Samurai136 0]

Quote

4. TOP CENTCOM VULNERABILITIES:
2nd – Alienation of the U.S. Congress or the American people caused by Iraqi public ingratitude and corruption.
3rd – Political ineptitude of Shia civil leadership that freezes out the Sunnis and creates a civil war during our drawdown.

Good points. From the same source above. Points two and three are happening.

$250 billion spent to date, 2200 american soldiers dead; 33,000 Iraqi civilians dead.

Points two and three fall into the 2003 "worst case" scenarios for the Iraq War. The worst case scenario bumped the duration of the war from a 2006/2008 conclusion to a 2013 conclusion and a cost of $415 billion.

Since we are already exceeding the planned cost of the war (figure the final cost closer to $1 trillion) it is appropriate to ask; How many US Soldiers' lives is this worth? Is it worth another trillion dollars added to the national Debt?

Should Americans continue to support and pay for a trillion dollar lie?

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[likearock 1]

Quote

Unfortunately there are many elements in western democracies (including the US) who for whatever reason are drooling at the prospect of seeing the US fall on it's face in this matter. For example, nothing would make the western media happier than to see Iraq turn into a Vietnam type fiasco as that would be more newsworthy than a successful mission (Michael Moorers career depends on the US failing). As a result the US is forced to carry more than their fair share of the burden as countries that could be helping out are standing on the sidelines hoping it will fail, so they can smugly reasure themselve of their moral superiority. It is rather like a surgeon watching another surgeon who is his competitor fail during a real operation and refusing to help (even if it would save the patients life) just because watching his colleague fail is more important than saving a life.

Hasn't the argument for international participation been around for several years now? If I recall, one of the key roadblocks was the administration's unwillingness to give up some measure of control, both in terms of the military and in terms of civilian contracts, in order to secure international cooperation. Has that changed since then?

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

Quote

Unfortunately there are many elements in western democracies (including the US) who for whatever reason are drooling at the prospect of seeing the US fall on it's face in this matter. For example, nothing would make the western media happier than to see Iraq turn into a Vietnam type fiasco as that would be more newsworthy than a successful mission (Michael Moorers career depends on the US failing). As a result the US is forced to carry more than their fair share of the burden as countries that could be helping out are standing on the sidelines hoping it will fail, so they can smugly reasure themselve of their moral superiority. It is rather like a surgeon watching another surgeon who is his competitor fail during a real operation and refusing to help (even if it would save the patients life) just because watching his colleague fail is more important than saving a life.

Hasn't the argument for international participation been around for several years now? If I recall, one of the key roadblocks was the administration's unwillingness to give up some measure of control, both in terms of the military and in terms of civilian contracts, in order to secure international cooperation. Has that changed since then?

Much more likely that countries like France, Germany, Russia etc had their hands so far in the Oil for Food till, that they refused to help to protect their investments.

[billvon 2,476]

> It is said people can think the worst into being. Start thinking too
> much about a parachute malfunction and guess what.....it's bound to
>happen.

You're right! Get those Iraqis some tinfoil hats and all will be well.

[billvon 2,476]

>but for better sake how about WWII?

Has we really degenerated to "Iraq isn't so bad because more people died during WWII?" When the first dirty bomb is detonated, will the right claim "Hey, fewer people died in the Fallujah blast than in Nagasaki, so it's not _really_ a tragedy?"

I think perhaps it's time to stop dressing up Iraq as a swell war, acknowledge it as a disaster, and START FIXING IT. Our troops need a better strategy, not window dressing about how those roadside bombs are really much, much better than the mines in Vietnam. The body bags put lie to any claim that this is not a disaster of epic proportions.

[mnealtx 0]

Your other points aside....

Quote

"At least Bush didn't lie under oath about getting get a blowjob!"

Fixed that one for you.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jenfly00 0]

Quote

Your other points aside....

Quote

"At least Bush didn't lie under oath about getting get a blowjob!"

Fixed that one for you.

Once again, the discussion of issues comes down to ...'but Clinton...'

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

Your other points aside....

Quote

"At least Bush didn't lie under oath about getting get a blowjob!"

Fixed that one for you.

Once again, the discussion of issues comes down to ...'but Clinton...'

Yeah, especially when it was billvon that brought it up....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jenfly00 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Your other points aside....

Quote

"At least Bush didn't lie under oath about getting get a blowjob!"

Fixed that one for you.

Once again, the discussion of issues comes down to ...'but Clinton...'

Yeah, especially when it was billvon that brought it up....

sigh ...and now the HE STARTED IT defense.

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

Yeah, especially when it was billvon that brought it up....

sigh ...and now the HE STARTED IT defense.

Reading is fundamental....

It just kills you when someone brings up how corrupt Clinton is, doesn't it?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

> It is said people can think the worst into being. Start thinking too
> much about a parachute malfunction and guess what.....it's bound to
>happen.

You're right! Get those Iraqis some tinfoil hats and all will be well.

Not surprising how many fail to understand what a 1st year Psych Student could explain. Individually or in groups.

[warpedskydiver 0]

I have an idea Bill,

STEP 1: Take all the politicians out of all the decision making for Military operations.

STEP 2: Take the leash off the military.

STEP 3: Tell the rest of the world if they don't like it go fuck themselves.

STEP 4: Bring our military home after the 4 months it would take to kill every Terrorist, Sympathizer and Financier. You see to fund an insurgency and terrorism it takes alot of money...kill the bankers that are supporting it...no matter what the nationality!

STEP 5: the next time someone cries for help from the USA tell them in no uncertain terms ...NO!

cut off all financial aid to every country, no more disaster relief, no more mutual support, no more UN contributions! See how long it takes for the assholes of the world to be killed by their own people!

STEP 6: If we are ever attacked by any terroist or any US citizen is killed abroad we will either wipe out an entire city or kill every living relative that terrorist has.

heres an example: they kill a US skydiver in say...Paris...POOF paris is no more!

Bomb a building here ...the home country gets it!

Hijack or shoot down a plane = annihilation for the country it started in and any others that were complicit.


This may seem very harsh but I will ask you this, does the US actually owe any country a god damned thing?...NO!

[rasmack 0]

Quote

This may seem very harsh but I will ask you this, does the US actually owe any country a god damned thing?...NO!

Couldn't find a recent figure, but in 2002 the US foreign debt was around 2.8 trillion. If you have paid that off since then, then I guess you're right...

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[narcimund 0]

Quote

{snipped: long rant advocating nuclear war whenever an individual american is murdered overseas}

I'm speechless...

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[jenfly00 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Yeah, especially when it was billvon that brought it up....

sigh ...and now the HE STARTED IT defense.

Reading is fundamental....

It just kills you when someone brings up how corrupt Clinton is, doesn't it?

Nah, it's more like the annoyance of a stuck record replaying one phrase endlessly. You keep hoping there is more to come ...but it doesn't happen.

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[warpedskydiver 0]

well lets see does any country in the world claim they have paid ALL debts ever owed to the US?...

military aid?...reconstruction?(we didn't start WW2)

FOOD? medicine? Disaster relief? UN funds for the last 50 years?...Lives lost in defense of any country abroad?...hmmmmm lets see how much that adds up to with INTEREST!

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Nah, it's more like the annoyance of a stuck record replaying one phrase endlessly. You keep hoping there is more to come ...but it doesn't happen.

Funny you should say that.... I know EXACTLY what you mean.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 1,683]

Quote

$250 billion spent to date, 2200 american soldiers dead; 33,000 Iraqi civilians dead.

That's $250B in direct costs. The indirect costs are far higher, with the total probably approaching $1Trillion already.

Not to worry, we'll just borrow it and have the grandkids pay it back.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[narcimund 0]

Quote

$250 billion spent to date, 2200 american soldiers dead; 33,000 Iraqi civilians dead.

No way! That's over $7 million dollars per corpse. You'd think they could kill people a lot more frugally. They definitely need some efficiency improvements.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[rasmack 0]

Quote

well lets see does any country in the world claim they have paid ALL debts ever owed to the US?...

My point was that "owing someone something" is always a two-way street on the arena of international politics, at least if we exclude a couple of very poor African countries. Claiming you don't owe anyone anything is thoroughly unreasonable. Calm down. Go jump.

Edit: I see you're from Chicago. I may stop by this summer. Let's have a beer.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[warpedskydiver 0]

sounds like a great idea!!!

• Quote