Democracy my ass.....

[tkhayes 140]

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Nor did those countries do the substantial work of defeating communism, which would have spread from the U.S.S.R. unimpeded around the world were it not for our military bases in other countries (which, by the way, could not have been in those countries without the agreement of those countries...).

ahem - communism defeated iteself in 1989

apparently no intervention, in the end, was required.

And it is pretty arrogant of ANY country, oursleves included ot say that the advancement of communism was 'stopped' by us,

[tkhayes 140]

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We've had those bases in other (willing) countries for an awful long time -- long enough to establish without question that they are not a foray into conquering other countries.

I never said 'conquering'. Yes governments agree to us being there, but their citizens often do not. And they form militias (terrorists) to fight the 'agression'

[tkhayes 140]

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If Iran put a base in Mexico, you could be pretty sure it was there as a jumping-off point for eventual aggression,

If the USA put a base in Qatar/Saudi Arabia/Vietnam/Central America, you could be pretty sure it was there as a jumping-off point for eventual aggression

thanks for making my point

[Andy9o8 0]

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Nor did those countries do the substantial work of defeating communism, which would have spread from the U.S.S.R. unimpeded around the world were it not for our military bases in other countries (which, by the way, could not have been in those countries without the agreement of those countries...).

ahem - communism defeated iteself in 1989

apparently no intervention, in the end, was required.

And it is pretty arrogant of ANY country, oursleves included ot say that the advancement of communism was 'stopped' by us,

I think it's reasonable to say that the policy of NATO & "the West" of containing the hegemonic ambitions of the Soviet Union contributed to the demise of that government and its Eastern European satellites. The Soviet Union plowed tons and tons and tons of good money after bad into their military, to keep pace in its arms race with the US, to arm and prop up the economies of allies throughout the world (which the US actively undermined), to fight a protracted war in Afghanistan (with the US aiding the insurgents with money and weapons, particularly Stingers to shoot down their helicopters), fighting proxy wars with the US in 3rd World countries, all at the devastating economic expense of the rest of its nation, and eventually it could not sustain itself. Now that's very over-simplified, and there were several other key factors, too; but it did not simply implode upon itself spontaneously; we most definitely helped the process along in a significant way.

[tkhayes 140]

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...sustain itself. Now that's very over-simplified, and there were several other key factors, too; but it did not simply implode upon itself spontaneously; we most definitely helped the process along in a significant way.

I do not totally disagree, but our efforts could also be argued to have strengthened the wills of many of those communist regimes and helped the effort take a more firm hold in some parts of the world.

All empires fall, Rome, the USSR, The British, and eventually, us. Leave it the frig alone, its not for us to decide who runs what country - see my original post and thread(s)

[freethefly 6]

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to fight a protracted war in Afghanistan (with the US aiding the insurgents with money and weapons, particularly Stingers to shoot down their helicopters)

Whom the US abandoned thus giving Bin Laden and his buddies another reason to hate us. Yup Uncle Sammy was in bed with terrorist (Bin Laden and a good number of others got their training from the CIA), as long as they were fighting someone Sammy didn't like. Same with Saddam. Truth is, the US HAS supported terrorism worldwide, only Sammy calls them "Freedom Fighters". That is untill they are no longer needed and then they are called "terrorist.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Nor did those countries do the substantial work of defeating communism, which would have spread from the U.S.S.R. unimpeded around the world were it not for our military bases in other countries (which, by the way, could not have been in those countries without the agreement of those countries...).

ahem - communism defeated iteself in 1989

apparently no intervention, in the end, was required.

Um, it wasn't a spending war called the Cold War that caused it to consume itself in a race with a nation that was economically more able to compete and hold out til the end?


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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[crozby 0]

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Um, it wasn't a spending war called the Cold War that caused it to consume itself in a race with a nation that was economically more able to compete and hold out til the end?

Contrary to US propaganda that was not a significant factor in the demise of the USSR.

[SkyDekker 1,141]

Stop bursting his bubble....don't you know the US is responsible for everything good in the world....

[tcnelson 1]

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Um, it wasn't a spending war called the Cold War that caused it to consume itself in a race with a nation that was economically more able to compete and hold out til the end?

Contrary to US propaganda that was not a significant factor in the demise of the USSR.

untouchable ruling class + rampant corruption in ruling class = demise of USSR.

USSR = perfect example of why socialism hasn't and will never work.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[Dolph 0]

Works well here.

Scandinavian countries are the least corrupt in the world.

Of course, the countries ain't no commie countries. But socialist ones - certainly.

Not that I'll vote for a socialist. It's just about right as it is right now. Don't need more.

[billvon 2,426]

>USSR = perfect example of why socialism hasn't and will never work.

Communism, actually. Socialism is more an economic system, one that works pretty well here. The CDC - ATC - the interstates - the police - the space program - all socialist programs, where the government controls production and distribution of the services. Generally speaking, they work pretty well. We have the advantage that we've taken the best of several systems (communism, socialism, pure democracy, representative government, capitalism etc) and merged them into a hybrid system - so we don't get the excesses of any one system. Not even the most red-blooded american would like true democracy or true, pure capitalism.

[Frenchy68 0]

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Not even the most red-blooded american would like true democracy

Especially if he/she keeps getting it confused with the notion of freedom.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Stop bursting his bubble....don't you know the US is responsible for everything good in the world....

Why don't you go ask the victims of the southeast asian tsunami last year if Americans do good things in the world.

It's lovely and easy to claim something is just "American propaganda" when you end your post right there. Pathetic. Anyone with something legitimate and defensible to say would simply say it, rather than delivering cheap one-liner pot-shots.


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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[ROK 0]

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True.

I've been saying all along that religion (of any sort, really) is an impediment and NEVER an expediter of peaceful coexistence of the world's people.

Look not between different religions; look simply at islam for a good example. These are people supposedly of the same religion, and even there they are fragmented so badly along tribal-type lines that the murder each other, and have for generations. All because of religious disagreements and differences, and within ONE religion, not between different ones!

Religion is major problem. Humans cannot handle it without it becoming a source of strife. My personal feeling is that it should be abandoned, and we should dedicate all of our efforts toward uniting the people of the world toward making life better here. We have to admit there is a lot of work to do. We're wasting an awful lot of time and energy.

_________________________________________________

Are you kidding me? Your statement wanting to "abandon" religion is no better than different religious factions killing each other. The forcing of your beliefs on others will not solve the problem. As Americans who preach freedom, we need to tread carefully.

If we really look at what has transpired over the last couple of centuries, we'd discover that the majority of all involvement with foreign entities has little to do with "helping". On the surface we are a giving country who wants to make the world a better place, but in reality, most every move is self-serving. Is this a bad thing? No. It's called survival.

America is a giant machine that needs to be fed so you and I can enjoy our freedoms. We will do what ever is necessary to keep this machine rolling. If we need oil, we're going to find a way to take it. Food, look out we're coming through. Security, threaten our supply lines, or our decadent way of life, and we'll step on you.

This is America. This is who we are. We let ourselves be illusioned into believing that our moves are for the betterment of the world. The moves we make, the people we kill, and the people we put into government are so you and I can enjoy that Sunday BBQ, or jump out of that plane.

These things offend our sensibilities, so we blame everything on those who keep the machine rolling.

I love my country, and it's the American people who make America what it is. If we take issue with what we've become, it's up to us to change it.

Before any of you American "bashers" jump on what I've said, perhaps you better take a long look at your own countries and their motivations too.

Democracy should never be forced, unless it keeps the line moving at McDonalds.

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[SkyDekker 1,141]

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Why don't you go ask the victims of the southeast asian tsunami last year if Americans do good things in the world.

It's lovely and easy to claim something is just "American propaganda" when you end your post right there. Pathetic. Anyone with something legitimate and defensible to say would simply say it, rather than delivering cheap one-liner pot-shots.

I did, I have family that live sin South East Asia, Phuket to be exact. I was with them (albeit in Canada) when the tsunami hit. The faulty reporting of a major US network almost completely ruined his business....he is very thankful

Who do you know in that region?