stay away from fat people...

[RhondaLea 3]

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Some of them are the people you're making fun of behind their backs.

feel free to think what you like but, don't put words in my mouth.

You're right. You didn't say anything like that, and you didn't even imply it.

But it is the whole tone of the thread, and it makes me very uncomfortable.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Trent 0]

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Personally, I think it's nice to have someone at my back when I'm attacked ad hominem.

You mean when someone replies to a legitimate post pertaining to the subject of discussion with something like this?

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Your medical expertise is staggering. And my interest in your education is flagging... you can blame that on my laziness.

Just checking.

Oh, hello again!

[RhondaLea 3]

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Personally, I think it's nice to have someone at my back when I'm attacked ad hominem.

You mean when someone replies to a legitimate post pertaining to the subject of discussion with something like this?

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Your medical expertise is staggering. And my interest in your education is flagging... you can blame that on my laziness.

Just checking.

Oh Trent...

The cause is the cause. Taking the end of the argument and making it the cause... ...you can't do that. Events have a sequence. And the effect (which is what you're pointing to right now) is not the cause.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Michele 1]

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First of all, I'm not referring to overweight, or underweight people for that matter, people. I'm referring to obese people.

O.K., so what are your reference parameters? % of body fat? Pounds v. height? Looks? Clothing size? Health status? All? None? Other? What, in your opinion, is "obese"?

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People (most, I know there are always exceptions) don't become obese for strictly uncontrollable reason Ifan there's medical or physical issues making it easier to gain weight, then of course, there will be a bit of extra weight. But if these factors are accounted for, not being lazy, then the person won't be overweight. For exaplie, if, even after knowing about the medical/physical disadvantages he has, he continues to eat mcdonalds daily and never excercise, and hence becomes obese, that's laziness, not bad metabolism.

Ah, but what you don't seem to understand is that medication can start the weight gain and prevent any weight loss, and by the time things are done (if they can be), the weight's already gained. Furthermore, if one (as in RL's situation) has an illness which is very difficult to diagnose and it's let to run it's course over many years, and only then is treatment begun, the damage has *already* occurred...in my case, I wasn't diagnosed for many many years, and a whole lot of physical damage is still being "undone" while other damage will never be corrected.

What do you consider "a bit of extra weight" and how do you know it's from laziness or from a medical issue when you're looking at them and saying "fattie" in your head and tossing a sour, nasty look their way? (Not saying you do this, but one does indeed suspect so; it happens far more often than you think, and especially with those who prejudge. Your original post indicates this might be the case. Correct me if I'm wrong...).

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It doesn't take three hours day to stay in better shape. Running an hour a day is enough, even an hour every other day would suffice. Of course, some people would have to work a bit harder. That's just how it is. Life wasn't meant to be easy.

You do realize you contradict yourself in your statement. For me, it did take three hours daily, 5 days a week. When I was at a "fighting" weight, my workout included 2 hours daily of cardio, and one hour (or more) of weights. And I still was told I was 'overweight' (according to some people). I'm not looking for an "easy" life; never have, never will. But I am also not willing to sit here and read someone's ignorance without an attempt to show there is a)a person with a real heart, feelings, and emotions reading your posts, and b) you don't know what you're talking about. Your indication that "life isn't easy" is simply another bit of misinformation that you apparently believe and cling to, and your assumption that I want things to be "easy" is about as spurious and condescending as it gets.

I should've just stuck with my original thought to post...

Sigh...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Michele 1]

Dolph, thanks for the illustration. I agree...and I also think that those who are not the "norm" are regularly ostracized (on both sides; too skinny and/or too fat).

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have a feeling a LOT of the people who are tripping on some people who are not their IDEAL little barbie( anorexic/beulemic) look...OR the hot stud athletic guy look.... have a HUGE dissapointment coming as they get older... and find their metabolism changing...

I live in Barbie and Ken land. It's scary, the lengths some people will go to look a particular part, or have a certain look. Very, very scary. They stick plastic pillows in their chests or calves; they bleach their skin; they shoot fat into their lips. They get pulled out of recognition by surgeons, all to fit someone else's idea of what is beautiful and acceptable. They torture themselves if they gain an ounce, and will literally starve themselves to get the look they want. And not one of them look good, and not one procedure looks normal.

A lot of people who think that someone else should a certain way or they're not worthy of (whatever) needs to look a bit farther than the surface, and indeed much farther than their mirror. I am so sick of the judgmental arrogance of some people, the attitude that they are better than I because of their body (oh please!!!) that it just makes me laugh to see them behave without even be aware of it.

And yes, Jeanne, I will definitely jump with you any time.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Dolph 0]

Ya'know, it many ways, this is a non issue. At least to me.

Let people talk, cast nasty looks and so forth. As long as they don't get in my way I won't fault them for being who they are. That may be arrogant, superficious and judgemental - fine for me if they're happy with it and don't get in my way.

Such people cannot be entirely avoided. They can however become a very small part of your life, one handed with a shrug and a "whatever". I'll let them abuse and poison their own minds and bodies as long as they're not affecting mine. Not a big deal - they're just assholes. Some of them are even nice assholes and some of them I call friends.

It's weird. We have the most capable brain nature has ever come up with but our reproductive "instincts" are so easily screwed with and intertwined with norms, perceptions and behaviour. And there are far, far more interesting things to spend all that brain power on.

Like, if this dude, right, jumps off a plane, it would be like REALLY cool if there were smoke and fireworks and stuff....and then like he landed in the middle of the swooop pond and totally almost drowned LOLLLL!!1!1!!

The above happens to my intelligence when I go to a DZ. It sure as hell beats your ass is bigger than mine though

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Sometimes you can, and from what I found, it has something to do with the body's oxygen intake, but beyond that I don't know. However, it is possible to gain more than the mass of the food you eat.

I need to see something that proves that this oxygen effect is significant, or even real to begin with. It seems pretty improbably that, if this phenomenon exists, that it would contribute greatly to one's weight.

If only we could make the food have a "HELIUM effect"!

Then, the more you ate, the LIGHTER you would become!!

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Skyrad 0]

While there are some disorders and medications that make one gain weight. The vast majority of people who are obease are so because they intake more energy than they expend, simple.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

True, but shouldn't that have been one sentence?


No A in "obese."


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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Skyrad 0]

I stand corrected PJ. Coming here must be like a busmans holiday for you.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[unformed 0]

I don't know you. I don't mean to offend you in any way. I just call things the way I see it.

I'm not so stuck up that I think that weight or looks is the only, or even a large, factor in someone's persoinality. Many of those that are stunningly beautiful have their own problems or hangups. No, I don't look away or sneer when a "fattie" walks by. I do judge, though, and that's not changing. It's what makes me more perceptive, and I'm usually right. Not always, I understand, but enough. As I said, I'm just calling this as I see it.

Here's what I can't seem to understand, however: If a large amount of obesity is cause by factors other than laziness, why is it that no other country I've been in, which is quite a few, has as large of a number of overweight people?

I would bet that that it is because not everybody has a personal vehicle, and has to actually walk or ride a bicycle a fair bit. If there's some other reason why all of the world's fat-causing diseases are overwhelmingly in the US, and now, for what I've heard, Australia, I would like to know about it.

This ad space for sale.

[Michele 1]

At least you recognize your prejuding. Most people don't.

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I don't know you. I don't mean to offend you in any way. I just call things the way I see it.

I'm not so stuck up that I think that weight or looks is the only, or even a large, factor in someone's persoinality. Many of those that are stunningly beautiful have their own problems or hangups. No, I don't look away or sneer when a "fattie" walks by. I do judge, though, and that's not changing. It's what makes me more perceptive, and I'm usually right. Not always, I understand, but enough. As I said, I'm just calling this as I see it.

Here's what I can't seem to understand, however: If a large amount of obesity is cause by factors other than laziness, why is it that no other country I've been in, which is quite a few, has as large of a number of overweight people?

I would bet that that it is because not everybody has a personal vehicle, and has to actually walk or ride a bicycle a fair bit. If there's some other reason why all of the world's fat-causing diseases are overwhelmingly in the US, and now, for what I've heard, Australia, I would like to know about it.

Let me re-write it so that you'll see how prejudicial your comments are. If you said the following:

I'm not so stuck up that I think that color or skin tone is the only, or even a large, factor in someone's personality. Many of those that are white have their own problems or hangups. No, I don't look away or sneer when a "nigger" walks by. I do judge, though, and that's not changing. It's what makes me more perceptive, and I'm usually right. Not always, I understand, but enough. As I said, I'm just calling this as I see it.

Here's what I can't seem to understand, however: If a large amount of crime is caused by factors other than skin color, why is it that no other country I've been in, which is quite a few, has as large of a number of victimized people? "

Et cetera.

Look. Prejudging on anything is wrong. Believing your perceptions are accurate because that's what you think, in face of other evidence (both anecdotal and scientific), is either ignorant or arrogant. Do I believe you to be either? Despite what you've posted, because I don't know you, I can't say I do believe you to be either.

And rest easy, it takes a whole lot more to offend me than someone showing me that they're prejudiced in one way or another.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts...I disagree with them wholeheartedly.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[crozby 0]

What proportion of obese people in the USA are that way because of a medical disorder, and what proportion because they eat too much of the wrong kind of food and/or don't exercise sufficiently?

[RhondaLea 3]

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Here's what I can't seem to understand, however: If a large amount of obesity is cause by factors other than laziness, why is it that no other country I've been in, which is quite a few, has as large of a number of overweight people?

The original argument that Michele and I took on was the assertion that all obesity is caused by laziness. Some obesity is caused by other factors. That's the argument. So we don't have to argue that a "large amount of obesity" is caused by things other than laziness.

But I know a lot of very fat people who are a whole lot more active than I am. For all that they are big, they never stop moving, they exercise, they keep their hearts healthier than a lot of skinnier people who just happen to have faster metabolisms.

Obesity is caused by taking in more than one burns off. That's just a fact. But the reasons why one fails to burn off the excess are many, and to attribute the cause to laziness is...lazy.

Even the fattest person can simply stop eating, and that person will eventually lose weight. Quickly at first, then ever more slowly afterward as the body begins to go into starvation mode.

I know people who have made weight loss a major quest, and if they're willing to sacrifice good nutrition and live on 600-800 calories a day, they'll lose weight too. But making oneself sick in the process doesn't seem to be the best of all possible ideas.

Ask a woman like me, with a thyroid condition, ask a woman with PCOS, ask a man with a hormonal imbalance. We are not lazy slugs, but we have a great deal of difficulty getting our bodies to cooperate with the common wisdom.

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/o/obesity/causes.htm

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[pirana 0]

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So, if laziness and bad diet was the sole factor here, I think my wingload would be significantly higher than it is. I'm a skinny fuck despite my bad eating/exercise habits.

My feeling is that if you take a group of 100 people, give them the same amount of food and the same amount of exercise, you'll have 100 overweight, normal weight and skinny bastards. And you can bet your ass the normals will call people lazy fatsos and skeletons.

Both overweight and underweight will have to put in more effort to get "normal" weight. Given an average group of people with an average amount of self discipline towards food and exercise, the comparison of body fat ain't particularly fair.

Depends on how much that "same amount of exercise" is. If it is a pitiful or mediocre amount, sure, you'll get some distribution. But I guarantee you that if those 100 people came out to my farm, and I put them to work doing the "same amount of exercise" as I normally get - there will not be any fatsos for long.

If any are really obese it might take some time due to the large amount to lose and the fact that a person in horrible shape needs to work up to what I call rigorous exercise.

There's my challenge. Come on out. I'll feed you well, and put you to real work. I guarantee you will lose weight, and gain strength.

You definitely hit on a key point there with the "average amount of discipline." My contention is that the average amount of discipline is pretty low. If a person has some sort of low metabolism, and they know that, then act accordingly.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[rehmwa 2]

It's gross, did you know that around half the people in the world are heavier than average? HALF

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[pirana 0]

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At least you recognize your prejuding. Most people don't.

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I don't know you. I don't mean to offend you in any way. I just call things the way I see it.

I'm not so stuck up that I think that weight or looks is the only, or even a large, factor in someone's persoinality. Many of those that are stunningly beautiful have their own problems or hangups. No, I don't look away or sneer when a "fattie" walks by. I do judge, though, and that's not changing. It's what makes me more perceptive, and I'm usually right. Not always, I understand, but enough. As I said, I'm just calling this as I see it.

Here's what I can't seem to understand, however: If a large amount of obesity is cause by factors other than laziness, why is it that no other country I've been in, which is quite a few, has as large of a number of overweight people?

I would bet that that it is because not everybody has a personal vehicle, and has to actually walk or ride a bicycle a fair bit. If there's some other reason why all of the world's fat-causing diseases are overwhelmingly in the US, and now, for what I've heard, Australia, I would like to know about it.

Let me re-write it so that you'll see how prejudicial your comments are. If you said the following:

I'm not so stuck up that I think that color or skin tone is the only, or even a large, factor in someone's personality. Many of those that are white have their own problems or hangups. No, I don't look away or sneer when a "nigger" walks by. I do judge, though, and that's not changing. It's what makes me more perceptive, and I'm usually right. Not always, I understand, but enough. As I said, I'm just calling this as I see it.

Here's what I can't seem to understand, however: If a large amount of crime is caused by factors other than skin color, why is it that no other country I've been in, which is quite a few, has as large of a number of victimized people? "

Et cetera.

Look. Prejudging on anything is wrong. Believing your perceptions are accurate because that's what you think, in face of other evidence (both anecdotal and scientific), is either ignorant or arrogant. Do I believe you to be either? Despite what you've posted, because I don't know you, I can't say I do believe you to be either.

And rest easy, it takes a whole lot more to offend me than someone showing me that they're prejudiced in one way or another.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts...I disagree with them wholeheartedly.

Ciels-
Michele

That is totally illogical. The analogy is completely irrelevant. No person exerecises any amount of choice in their skin color.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[tcnelson 1]

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It's gross, did you know that around half the people in the world are heavier than average? HALF

now that made me laugh out loud.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[pirana 0]

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Just illustrating the point that the system under consideration includes more than a fatso and the food he eats.

It also requires a drive through, a deep fryer, paper hats, argentinian beef, soy, soy and more soy, and partially dyhodregenated wigglydumps......

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Metabolizing a pound of food requires a lot of air.

So does expelling the waste products resulting from a drive through, a deep fryer, paper hats, argentinian beef, soy, soy and more soy, and partially dyhodregenated wigglydumps

WIGGLYDUMP!!!!?????

And you chide me for Monkey-Fart.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[NWFlyer 2]

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That is totally illogical. The analogy is completely irrelevant. No person exerecises any amount of choice in their skin color.

Clearly you haven't been keeping an eye on Michael Jackson lately.

[pirana 0]

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So, yeah, I know there medical/genetic/physical problems, but 99% of those medical problems can be taken care of by eating better and excercising.

This is simply wrong.

rl

It would be far more accurate to say most obesity is not the result of a medical disorder. And some medical disorders are easily treated. But there are some nasty and complicated conditions that are very difficult to control. It is a very small proportion of the population that suffers from them, but those people are totally exempt from simple laziness being the cause of their problem.

I do not have exact numbers, just going on the word of friends in the business. Just to be clear too, having a metabolism on the low end but within normal parameters, is not a medical disorder. Serious thyroid or other endocrine disorders are.

The endocrine system with all of it's hormones and catalysts and enzymes and other glandular secretions is a very convoluted web of dependencies and triggers and blockers that does not lend itself to easy solutions. It's why almost all drugs have such a littany of side effects. A little change in any one part of the system can spin off all kinds off seemingly unrelated effects.

So the initial statement is simply wrong. It's true that a high percentage of obesity can be addressed with diet and exercise, but what's left ARE the medical problems, and though they can largely be managed, some are a constant ongoing battle with no guarantee of success.

One of my favorite articles from The Onion:

Scientists Discover Gene that Causes People to Eat the Whole Damn Bag of Chips.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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It's gross, did you know that around half the people in the world are heavier than average? HALF

Recent headline:

World Mortality Rate Holds Steady at 100%

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Dolph 0]

Heh Pirana, I'm 145 pounds as it is. Don't need to lose more.

Having said that, my assumption was an average exercise - not a strenous daily 12 hour day full of manual labour.

Put people in concentration camps and stop feeding them and the distribution will be towards the slim end after a while.

[Shotgun 1]

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No person exerecises any amount of choice in their skin color.

Hmm, then I wonder what is going on in all of these tanning salons around here... Hmm...

[RhondaLea 3]

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What proportion of obese people in the USA are that way because of a medical disorder, and what proportion because they eat too much of the wrong kind of food and/or don't exercise sufficiently?

Well, there are between 6 and 8 million people in this country alone with an undiagnosed thyroid disorder.

Now, some of those people are hyperthyroid, so they're not likely to be fat, but a much larger percentage are hypothyroid, and they are all likely to have a weight problem to some degree or another.

That doesn't take into account all the other medical conditions mentioned in the link I posted.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb