tigra 0
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tbrown 26
QuoteIts about time!
For anyone wanting some background on him and his case: http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-21-03.html
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
5th Amendment to U.S. Constitution
Yet president Bush feels he and his Patriot Act are above this.
All we need to do is compare the due process given to the convicted American terrorist Timothy McVeigh. After being arrested and CHARGED with bombing the Federal Building in Oklahoma City, and with the murder of hundreds of people therein, McVeigh was put on TRIAL before a JURY OF HIS PEERS. He was furthermore given vigorous and diligent LEGAL COUNSEL who worked very hard in his DEFENSE. The jury found him guilty based on the EVIDENCE and recommended a death sentence, which the judge gave him. Even then, DEFENSE COUNSEL vigorously APPEALED the death sentence, right down to the last hours. And in the end, Tim got the NEEDLE.
There's no reason why Padillo can't be charged and tried with whatever it is they think he was up to. It's just that BUSH is more scared of our Constitutional freedoms than the very enemies he raves about.
And yes, this is also a Bush bashing. I like it, it's fun, the guy's a fucking retard...
Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !
rushmc 18
It's got nothing to do with Bush except he is hated by the left. I think this is totally different than TM.
IMHO
IMHO
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rushmc 18
Looks like the government now wants to transfer him to the federal system
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051228/pl_nm/security_padilla_dc_1
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051228/pl_nm/security_padilla_dc_1
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
rushmc 18
QuoteOr are you somewhat blinded by irrational loyalty or something else perhaps?
How is it irrational hate to simply state a fact? I will NEVER understand that logic. The statement you made is so much more "bogus".
So, it is a fact that you know how Bush "feels"?
I will have to remember that.......
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
QuoteThere's no reason why Padillo can't be charged and tried with whatever it is they think he was up to. It's just that BUSH is more scared of our Constitutional freedoms than the very enemies he raves about.
Else it could have been the case that in order to prevent possible future attacks by Padilla’s organization the investigators felt compelled to share with Padilla some of our national means we employed to collect intelligence about he and his colleagues and there was legitimate concern on the part of the Administration that Padilla might communicate this information to others in a way which could comprise ongoing collection efforts.
Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!
kallend 1,644
Quote
What does "due process" mean given the facts alleged in this case?
Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!
"nor be deprived of ... liberty ... without due process of law;"
You're the lawyer, you tell us.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
QuoteYou're the lawyer, you tell us.
You can't afford my retainer.
Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!
kallend 1,644
Quote
QuoteYou're the lawyer, you tell us.
You can't afford my retainer.
Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!
Is it more than my expert witness fee?
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
QuoteQuoteIts about time!
For anyone wanting some background on him and his case: http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-21-03.html
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
5th Amendment to U.S. Constitution
Yet president Bush feels he and his Patriot Act are above this.
All we need to do is compare the due process given to the convicted American terrorist Timothy McVeigh. After being arrested and CHARGED with bombing the Federal Building in Oklahoma City, and with the murder of hundreds of people therein, McVeigh was put on TRIAL before a JURY OF HIS PEERS. He was furthermore given vigorous and diligent LEGAL COUNSEL who worked very hard in his DEFENSE. The jury found him guilty based on the EVIDENCE and recommended a death sentence, which the judge gave him. Even then, DEFENSE COUNSEL vigorously APPEALED the death sentence, right down to the last hours. And in the end, Tim got the NEEDLE.
There's no reason why Padillo can't be charged and tried with whatever it is they think he was up to. It's just that BUSH is more scared of our Constitutional freedoms than the very enemies he raves about.
And yes, this is also a Bush bashing. I like it, it's fun, the guy's a fucking retard...
_________________________________________
From reading both news articles, I don't care if the military tries him or a civilian court tries him. He needs to be tried for terrorism against the United States. The guy was in cahoots with terrorist factions and conspired to set-off a 'dirty bomb'. He's a terrorist and should be treated like one. How much of that kind of crap do we have to put up with. This guy isn't being treated badly. What if, it was the other way around and he conspired against the terrorists and they caught him? He would've been dead by now. More than likely, no hearing, no trial... nothing.
Chuck
tbrown 26
Quote
QuoteThere's no reason why Padillo can't be charged and tried with whatever it is they think he was up to. It's just that BUSH is more scared of our Constitutional freedoms than the very enemies he raves about.
Else it could have been the case that in order to prevent possible future attacks by Padilla’s organization the investigators felt compelled to share with Padilla some of our national means we employed to collect intelligence about he and his colleagues and there was legitimate concern on the part of the Administration that Padilla might communicate this information to others in a way which could comprise ongoing collection efforts.
Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!
Oh bullshit, that's just their excuse. It's paranoid double talk - a specialty this administration has elevated to an artform. And it doesn't change the fact that he's still an American citizen with rights that even assholes like W can't take away.
Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !
tbrown 26
From reading both news articles, I don't care if the military tries him or a civilian court tries him. He needs to be tried for terrorism against the United States. The guy was in cahoots with terrorist factions and conspired to set-off a 'dirty bomb'. He's a terrorist and should be treated like one. How much of that kind of crap do we have to put up with. This guy isn't being treated badly. What if, it was the other way around and he conspired against the terrorists and they caught him? He would've been dead by now. More than likely, no hearing, no trial... nothing.
So what happens to you, if your neighbor, who is pissed off at you for who knows what, rats you out to the Feds for talking about a dirty bomb - even though you've done nothing of the sort ? Would it make any difference if you were being "treated humanely" (big laugh) after you disappeared ?
To say Padilla would disappear into an unmarked grave anywhere else in the world, even admitting it's probably true, misses the point. The point is this is America, we don't do this to our own people. Because if we do it to anyone, we can do it to YOU, or even worse, to ME. And then we're not America anymore, so what's left to defend ?
We've got through Civil War and two World Wars, plus a Cold War that came within hours of a nuclear exchange. Our system works. Timothy McVeigh is a perfect example of the system working.
I'm NOT saying Padilla is innocent. I really don't know and the truth is the way the government has treated him makes me wonder, because I do NOT trust the government - and nobody should ever trust the government in a free society. Because free societies are ONLY free because they place LIMITS on what the government can do. Otherwise we're like all the rest and there won't be any difference between us and them.
That's the way it was in Orwell's 1984 - three powers that were all the same, none of them cared, so long as they could keep the war going without end, nobody winning or losing, just the whole world under iron fisted control. Fuck that, put Padilla on trial or let him go.
Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !
QuoteAnd it doesn't change the fact that he's still an American citizen with rights that even assholes like W can't take away.
You mean rights like those once believed held by Mr. Korematsu? Americans seldom bother to examine the true extent to which their fundamental rights can be circumscribed given relatively minor pretexts. This Administration has been pushing the envelope but the smart money is betting they prevail. Not that I’m claiming W isn’t an “asshole” in your parlance, but I do have reason to believe W is advised by competent counsel.
Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!
QuoteFrom reading both news articles, I don't care if the military tries him or a civilian court tries him. He needs to be tried for terrorism against the United States. The guy was in cahoots with terrorist factions and conspired to set-off a 'dirty bomb'. He's a terrorist and should be treated like one. How much of that kind of crap do we have to put up with. This guy isn't being treated badly. What if, it was the other way around and he conspired against the terrorists and they caught him? He would've been dead by now. More than likely, no hearing, no trial... nothing.
So what happens to you, if your neighbor, who is pissed off at you for who knows what, rats you out to the Feds for talking about a dirty bomb - even though you've done nothing of the sort ? Would it make any difference if you were being "treated humanely" (big laugh) after you disappeared ?
To say Padilla would disappear into an unmarked grave anywhere else in the world, even admitting it's probably true, misses the point. The point is this is America, we don't do this to our own people. Because if we do it to anyone, we can do it to YOU, or even worse, to ME. And then we're not America anymore, so what's left to defend ?
We've got through Civil War and two World Wars, plus a Cold War that came within hours of a nuclear exchange. Our system works. Timothy McVeigh is a perfect example of the system working.
I'm NOT saying Padilla is innocent. I really don't know and the truth is the way the government has treated him makes me wonder, because I do NOT trust the government - and nobody should ever trust the government in a free society. Because free societies are ONLY free because they place LIMITS on what the government can do. Otherwise we're like all the rest and there won't be any difference between us and them.
That's the way it was in Orwell's 1984 - three powers that were all the same, none of them cared, so long as they could keep the war going without end, nobody winning or losing, just the whole world under iron fisted control. Fuck that, put Padilla on trial or let him go.
__________________________________
I re-read what I wrote and left a big word out... 'IF' . At any rate, you are absolutely correct in what you say. That is the wonderful part of living in the U.S A.
Chuck
Quote
From reading both news articles, I don't care if the military tries him or a civilian court tries him. He needs to be tried for terrorism against the United States. The guy was in cahoots with terrorist factions and conspired to set-off a 'dirty bomb'. He's a terrorist and should be treated like one. How much of that kind of crap do we have to put up with. This guy isn't being treated badly. What if, it was the other way around and he conspired against the terrorists and they caught him? He would've been dead by now. More than likely, no hearing, no trial... nothing.
Chuck
The response, "the other guys do worse" is never a good one to me. It does not matter WHAT he did. In America, people get charged with a crime and a fair trial. If he was a terrorist, let the government prosecute him as such and let a jury convict him as such. he should not, under any circumstances, be squirelled away without that. It is not the way America was meant to be and it is not the way America should be. We stand for justice and freedom and yet we do things like this. It seems to be just a tad hypocritical
Just because "they" would treat him worse does not make our treatment correct. Being treated humanely is not the same as being treated fairly.
And it does not matter to me if it was done to other people or not in the past. Conforming to the status quo does not makes something right...no matter how people want to spin it.
Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.
QuoteQuote
From reading both news articles, I don't care if the military tries him or a civilian court tries him. He needs to be tried for terrorism against the United States. The guy was in cahoots with terrorist factions and conspired to set-off a 'dirty bomb'. He's a terrorist and should be treated like one. How much of that kind of crap do we have to put up with. This guy isn't being treated badly. What if, it was the other way around and he conspired against the terrorists and they caught him? He would've been dead by now. More than likely, no hearing, no trial... nothing.
Chuck
The response, "the other guys do worse" is never a good one to me. It does not matter WHAT he did. In America, people get charged with a crime and a fair trial. If he was a terrorist, let the government prosecute him as such and let a jury convict him as such. he should not, under any circumstances, be squirelled away without that. It is not the way America was meant to be and it is not the way America should be. We stand for justice and freedom and yet we do things like this. It seems to be just a tad hypocritical
Just because "they" would treat him worse does not make our treatment correct. Being treated humanely is not the same as being treated fairly.
And it does not matter to me if it was done to other people or not in the past. Conforming to the status quo does not makes something right...no matter how people want to spin it.
__________________________________________
I think you're right. I don't believe we should treat prisoners in-humanely or 'like the other guys' but, I can't see putting them up in a Hilton either. What I'm trying to say is, 'if' this guy is to be tried in a court, it doesn't matter to me, which one... get him in a courtroom. We've been holding him too long. Isn't there something about a 'speedy' trial? I don't agree either with treating those who threaten the well being of this country with 'kid gloves'. I agree also with the fact there is a difference between being firm and brutality. Somebody 'in charge', needs to make a decision and get the ball rollin'.
Chuck
kallend 1,644
I agreed with Ronald Reagan when he called the USA "A shining city on a hill whose beacon light guides freedom-loving people everywhere".
I wonder what he would think of indefinite imprisonment without trial, government spying on citizens, perpetual state of war, government sanctioned torture, secret prisons...
I wonder what he would think of indefinite imprisonment without trial, government spying on citizens, perpetual state of war, government sanctioned torture, secret prisons...
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
rushmc 18
I see you got your DNC talking points this AM.....
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
kallend 1,644
QuoteI see you got your DNC talking points this AM.....
No, they steal them from me.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Channman 2
In the future it is prudent to beat the information out of him and then put a cap in his head and move on.
That way we can continue our peaceful lives, and not have to hear from those wishing to give confort to those whom wish to kill us.
Jose Padilla is intitled to nothing more than a quick trial and a firing squad.
That way we can continue our peaceful lives, and not have to hear from those wishing to give confort to those whom wish to kill us.
Jose Padilla is intitled to nothing more than a quick trial and a firing squad.
rushmc 18
QuoteQuoteI see you got your DNC talking points this AM.....
No, they steal them from me.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
How is it irrational hate to simply state a fact? I will NEVER understand that logic. The statement you made is so much more "bogus".
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