9/11 hijackers - brave or not?

[artistcalledian 0]

i believe they were : brave, wrong, twisted (in the true meaning of islam) and homicidal

i don't respect them

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Again, you're confusing moral with brave. "

Well, the point I was failing to make was that in my opinion, bravery (by your or a wider accepted definition) without nobility, or moral justification is stupidity.

"Worthy of respect does NOT equal brave."
Okay, point taken, probably a bad example.


Meh, potayto potahto....I don't think its worth getting all twisted up over, I don't think anyone here is advocating their actions, so its all kinda moot.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[rehmwa 2]

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I don't think anyone here is advocating their actions, so its all kinda moot.

mac gets it

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Skyrad 0]

I belive there is some debate over wether the majority of the hijackers knew of the mission objective. It is possible that they thought they would live after a hijacking. Although I don't condone what they did, yes i do think it took bravery.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

Even fanatics feel fear. Is bravery not the overcoming of fear, not the absence of it.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[markd_nscr986 0]

Mis-guided....yes

Fanatical.....yes

Ruthless......yes

Brave..........No

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

[SudsyFist 0]

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Brave..........No

Why not? By what definition of, "Brave," are you judging?

[markd_nscr986 0]

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Why not? By what definition of, "Brave," are you judging?


I dont confuse/equate bravery with being blinded by "religious fervor"

Religion had a lot more to do with their actions than bravery I believe

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

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[SudsyFist 0]

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I dont confuse/equate bravery with being blinded by "religious fervor"

Religion had a lot more to do with their actions than bravery I believe

So were the Apostles not brave, then? Does religion completely negate fear?

EDIT: Diction.

[markd_nscr986 0]

err....... uhhh.......hmmm

What Apostles?




I'm a Buddhist

Fanaticism of any kind (religious,political,etc.)blinds one to a lot including fear in a lot of instances......with Wahabbist sect of Islam it probably would.......

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

[SudsyFist 0]

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I'm a Buddhist

I don't care if you're Anton Szandor Lavey, himself. The question still stands.

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Fanaticism of any kind (religious,political,etc.)blinds one to a lot including fear in a lot of instances......with Wahabbist sect of Islam it probably would.......

Then by your logic, the extremism of battle can also blind one to their own fear. Your approach sure makes those posthumous medals of honor seem a lot less shiny.

I don't agree with your approach.

[markd_nscr986 0]

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don't care if you're Anton Szandor Lavey, himself. The question still stands.


Well.......you better explain to me what one of these "Apostle" things is..... Because in my particular brand of superstition,we dont have them

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Then by your logic, the extremism of battle can also blind one to their own fear. Your approach sure makes those posthumous medals of honor seem a lot less shiny


I think for most,it does,for a few it doesnt......and yet they still give their lives willingly for their cause,beliefs,fellow man,country,etc.That to me is "bravery"....but I still dont believe that was the case with most of the hijackers if any

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I don't agree with your approach.


Now you're gonna make me cry

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

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[SudsyFist 0]

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Well.......you better explain to me what one of these "Apostle" things is.....

I'm sorry. I made some assumptions about your historical knowledge. My bad. Here's a good primer.

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think for most,it does,for a few it doesnt......and yet they still give their lives willingly for their cause,beliefs,fellow man,country,etc.That to me is "bravery"....but I still dont believe that was the case with most of the hijackers if any

So, if the hijackers didn't give their lives willingly for their cause, beliefs, etc., then for what on Earth do you surmise they willingly gave their lives?

[markd_nscr986 0]

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I'm sorry. I made some assumptions about your historical knowledge.


No,you made assumptions about my religious knowledge/background..........but you're forgiven

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So, if the hijackers didn't give their lives willingly for their cause, beliefs, etc., then for what on Earth do you surmise they willingly gave their lives?

They were blinded/intoxicated by religious fanaticism

Suppose for instance you were to drink a bottle a tequila in a very short time.....and you are going to take on 6 armed mujahideen with your bare hands to make a statement.............would that be bravery?

I dont think so,that would be "liquid courage"

Because you wouldnt be in a frame of mind to recognise the danger........My contention is the hijackers were blinded to the danger(and not in the frame of mind to recognise the danger to themselves) by their religious zealotry.

Not bravery in my book anyway but I guess in could be in yours.....

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

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[SudsyFist 0]

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I'm sorry. I made some assumptions about your historical knowledge.

No,you made assumptions about my religious knowledge/background..........but you're forgiven

No, I actually made assumptions about your historical knowledge. I made no assumption about your religious background, believe it or not. But an assumption is an assumption; I apologize nonetheless.

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So, if the hijackers didn't give their lives willingly for their cause, beliefs, etc., then for what on Earth do you surmise they willingly gave their lives?

They were blinded/intoxicated by religious fanaticism

Suppose for instance you were to drink a bottle a tequila in a very short time.....and you are going to take on 6 armed mujahideen with your bare hands to make a statement.............would that be bravery?

I dont think so,that would be "liquid courage"

That's analogy's a bit off the mark, as it's chemical, but I'll roll with you.

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Because you wouldnt be in a frame of mind to recognise the danger........My contention is the hijackers were blinded to the danger(and not in the frame of mind to recognise the danger to themselves) by their religious zealotry.

Not bravery in my book anyway but I guess in could be in yours.....

Your contention of being blind to the danger to themselves is pretty far reaching. Self-preservation is pretty instinctive, and even those who overcome the instinct (through whatever means) to perform extraordinary acts still tend to acknowledge the danger to themselves.

What's to be said of soldiers in battle, then, impassioned with similar zealotry? That they don't recognize danger to themselves?

I think your assumption is way off base. Cultures are different, religion is different, skin is different, facial features are different... but in the end, we all share the commonality of being human.

And humans don't knowingly go to their deaths blind to the danger of it all. They accept it.

[DaVinci 0]

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They're 100% cowards. It's not brave to die what you believe in if it means killing thousands of innocent people.

Nonsense. They were brave. You may not agree with them or their reasons, but that does not change the fact that they faced death for something they felt strongly about.

Think about the movie "Independance Day". The father commits suicide to destroy the aliens....He is played up as a hero for dying for his children....And he would be.

Those Terrorists died for what they believed in. They were in fact quite brave. Just like Kamakazi pilots were brave, or how US soilders are brave.

You can't let the side they are on effect your definitions.

[ViperPilot 0]

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The father commits suicide to destroy the aliens....He is played up as a hero for dying for his children....And he would be.

Did he commit suicide to kill thousands of innocent poeple /aliens in that case? No, they were attacking his home.

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Just like Kamakazi pilots were brave, or how US soilders are brave.

Were kamakazi pilots running into innocent people or armed enemies? Are US soldiers partaking in dangerous missions to kill innocent people or bad guys?

There's brave, and then there's cowardice. Terrorists don't fit the bill (at least in the 9/11 case).

[DaVinci 0]

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Does anyone here consider that a memorial to the suicide bombers in say New York would be fitting?

It would not. But then again a memorial to Tibits and the men who designed the Atomic weapons that were used on Japan would not fit in Hiroshima...But they do fit in at Los Alamos.

"fitting" depends on where you are looking at it.

[DaVinci 0]

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Did he commit suicide to kill thousands of innocent poeple /aliens in that case? No, they were attacking his home.

Outcome does not matter. Only the event. If a soldier rushes out to save his buddy but fails and dies...Was it suddenly not brave of him to try?

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Were kamakazi pilots running into innocent people or armed enemies? Are US soldiers partaking in dangerous missions to kill innocent people or bad guys?

Again they felt they were attacking the enemy. But they fact they were willing to die to strike a blow makes them brave. Now deciding if they are "hero's" or not depends on what side you stand on. To the US they are not, but to AQ they were.

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There's brave, and then there's cowardice. Terrorists don't fit the bill (at least in the 9/11 case).

Just your opinion. However, dictonary definitons say otherwise.

By the very definiton they were brave.

Hero's or not is debateable, but brave is not.

[billvon 2,435]

>Did he commit suicide to kill thousands of innocent poeple /aliens in that case?

Yes. But since he was on our side he was a hero.

>Were kamakazi pilots running into innocent people or armed enemies?

Again, Tibbetts killed around 150,000 innocent people with his acts. And again, we consider him a hero.

Pick any example you want. If they die fighting for us, they're heroes - even if they kill themselves or kill hundreds of thousands of civilians. If they die fighting for our enemies, they're fanatics/cowards/'blinded by religion' or whatever. That's the one consistent distinction.

[juanesky 0]

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I was in a discussion the other day, and we were talking about 9/11. A mate of mine suggested that the hijackers where brave people, i initially said they were cowards... but then i thought "why were they cowards" and i couldn't come up with a reason

my mates argument was that to be prepaird to die for what you believe in, can't be an act of cowardice, but an act of bravery.

He made no comment on whether it was right or wrong, evil or not.. but solely on cowardice or bravery

anybody else think they were cowards ?

I think the London Bombers were brave. Imagine that, putting up with shitty food, racism, bad dental plans, old decript housing, bathing once a week if ever....wait a minute you made them feel at home!!!

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Bigwind 0]

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putting up with shitty food

remind me again what level obesity is at in America right now?

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racism

if our racism gets any worse, we'll have groups springing up calling themselves KKK or something

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bad dental plans

yeah, i wish i could have a mouth full of fake looking teeth because of a culture of plastic surgery and shallow people concerned about their looks

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old decript housing

stop sounding jealous of the fact we have history and you don't

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bathing once a week if ever

thank god for showers

[gemini 0]

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A man who walks into certain death to do what he believes is right is brave. He may also be a lunatic. Or a villian.

And he may still be a coward at the same time. If a man commits to an act that he knows will result in his death he may be a hero to his people if they feel his cause was just.

However if he includes others in his act and does not tell them they are on a suicide mission, he is a coward.

Blue skies,

Jim

[SudsyFist 0]

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And he may still be a coward at the same time. If a man commits to an act that he knows will result in his death he may be a hero to his people if they feel his cause was just.

However if he includes others in his act and does not tell them they are on a suicide mission, he is a coward.

You bring up a great point here, Jim. Perhaps we're looking at it from the wrong perspective: instead of determining whether the person was brave, perhaps we should address the specific act.

[billvon 2,435]

>And he may still be a coward at the same time.

Nope. Bravery and cowardice are antonyms.