Skydivers and Morality: A Practical Discourse

[JohnRich 4]

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As a former member of a SAR squad in Montgomery County, MD, I agree completely. I am not saying to send everyone out into the woods to do the professionals job...

What does a "professional" search do differently that can't be done by a hundred or more skydivers making a line and walking side-by-side to locate a body. They could have been briefed not to disturb anything when the body was discovered, and just to shout out for the authorities. So how would that have hurt anything?

[rehmwa 2]

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What does a "professional" search do differently that can't be done by a hundred or more skydivers making a line and walking side-by-side to locate a body. They could have been briefed not to disturb anything when the body was discovered, and just to shout out for the authorities. So how would that have hurt anything?

I would hope that 2 things would have happened -

1 - The DZ volunteered to help the SAR in any way possible indicating they had a lot of people on site that would likely volunteer at any request made.
2 - The SAR team seriously considered this offer and made the best decision based on their judgement as the professionals in charge.

anything else is just 2nd guessing - but if both of these things happened, then I wouldn't fault anyone for not doing the right thing

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Chiquita 12]

This is to everyone that seems to want to pass judgment. How do you know if they didn't ask to let the party go on? You weren't there, as well as the majority of the people posting here, so you don't know what took place and what didn't. That is besides the party. Maybe his family and friends asked to not cancel the party. Maybe a fair amount of people didn't even know about it. Maybe people just deal with things in their own way, so whose to say who is right and who is wrong. Maybe there were plenty of people that did not party it up all night. Maybe several people went home because of the incident. Unless you were there you don't know and should not pass judgment because you don't know all the details.

The police stopped the search once it got dark so why should a bunch of untrained people be out searching.

"Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity"

[rehmwa 2]

nicely put

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Chiquita 12]

“When the accident occurred, there was only an hour and a half of daylight left to search for the body. Nightfall hampered search efforts and we resumed early this morning,” Peacock said Sunday. That is Upson County Sheriff Don Peacock.

If the professionals called off the search because it would be too difficult, why should people that have pretty much no idea what they are doing be out there looking. So how could htey call out to the authorities when they weren't even there. Plus walking around at night, flash light or not, I am sure they are very liekly to disturb the scene. Like i said before if you were there and don't know all the details then you shouldn't judge.

"Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity"

[GTAVercetti 0]

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“When the accident occurred, there was only an hour and a half of daylight left to search for the body. Nightfall hampered search efforts and we resumed early this morning,” Peacock said Sunday. That is Upson County Sheriff Don Peacock.

If the professionals called off the search because it would be too difficult, why should people that have pretty much no idea what they are doing be out there looking. So how could htey call out to the authorities when they weren't even there. Plus walking around at night, flash light or not, I am sure they are very liekly to disturb the scene. Like i said before if you were there and don't know all the details then you shouldn't judge.

I never said they should search. I still think a party is in poor taste. Unless the family ASKED for the party to continue, but no one has posted anything to confirm this.

That is my opinion and I will stick to it.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[rehmwa 2]

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I am sure they are very liekly to disturb the scene.

If I was the scene and had a body fall on me from a great height, I'm pretty sure I'd already be pretty disturbed. At least as far as scenes can get disturbed. Surprisingly enough, it turns out that scenes are frequently disturbed or in the process of being disturbed, it started a long time ago when.....

(Sorry, I've been reading Douglas Adams lately.)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[TypicalFish 0]

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Unless you were there you don't know and should not pass judgment because you don't know all the details.

I agree with this completely, and I think the disclaimer was inherent in the original question. I am not passing judgement in the least, as it is not my place to; the original post asked for an opinion if I was present at such an incident and how I would feel if it was family member of friend.

"I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET

[Chiquita 12]

And no one has posted that they did not want the party to continue. So to me it seems that you are your basing your opinion on speculation, not fact.

It seems to me the people that were at the dz are not saying much, so most everything on here seems to be speculation plain and simple.

"Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity"

[Chiquita 12]

Actually the original post did not ask for opinion, it asked a question. It did not say "in your opinion". Nor does it ask how you would feel if it was a family member or friend. That may be your interpretation of what the person asked

I know several of the people involved in this incident and I know that I did not see any of them it the pictures of the party that happened that night partying it up. I only saw one of them in a picture and it didn't look like they were involved in the festivities, but I could be wrong.

Also, if you go back an read the posts on the first page there was a post from person that was at the boogie and he stated that most people did not even know about what happened until the next day. And he also stated that he asked if he could help with the search and the authorities said no.

From what this person's (the tandem passenger) best friend has said about him in another thread it seems to me like he would not have wanted the party to be cancelled and would have wanted everyone to celebrate life. But that is my opinion. But generally people that have a lust for life would rather have people celebrating life then mourning their death. Once again that is my opinion.

There have been a fair amount of fatalities (granted none like this) at boogies and that has never stopped a boogie before, people kept jumping and partying at night. So from the way people are talking on here the next time there is a fatality at a boogie that they should cancel the entire event, send everyone and not let people celebrate life.

"Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity"

[TypicalFish 0]

I think you are confusing me "judging" (which I hope I have made clear that I am not) with "having an opinion" (which I do and yet respect those who are of a different opinion than mine).

Given just the information provided, do I think was it in poor taste? Yes, I do.

Is it my call to make?

No, absolutely not.

Blue skies to the jumper and my prayers for his survivors.

"I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET

[GTAVercetti 0]

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I think you are confusing me "judging" (which I hope I have made clear that I am not) with "having an opinion" (which I do and yet respect those who are of a different opinion than mine).

Given just the information provided, do I think was it in poor taste? Yes, I do.

Is it my call to make?

No, absolutely not.

That about sums it up.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[Michele 1]

Ditto to both GAVercetti and Matt...

And my condolences to the bereaved.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Lindsey 0]

I was trying to think of how this might play out. Having never (knock on wood) been at a dz when a person died, I can only imagine how I'd feel. I jump at really small dz's, so it'd probably be a friend. I can't imagine just packing up at the end of the day and going home. I imagine we'd hang around together and have a beer....and a toast.... No telling what it'd turn into after we had a few.

While it may appear outwardly to be in bad taste, I bet that in reality it wasn't as thoughtless as it seems.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Michele 1]

I know what you're saying, Linz, but this didn't seem to be a few people hanging around, having a drink or two, comforting each other and telling stories, you know?

But hey, I wasn't there, and I don't know what happened. I can only go by what I'd do if in a similar situation. And as always, I can't speak for anyone else, just mine ownself...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[namgrunt 0]

I was on the chopper with another guy searching till dark.
there is VERY heavy woods and underbrush with many scattered lakes and ponds.
we flew till dark.
then state choper equiped with flear arrived and took over search.

I was standing with family in middle of landing area with his wheel chare ready. we obsurved a high canopy about a mile away at 10,000 feet.
thats a BIG area to search on foot

very few folks even knew something had occured.

rescue was staged at end of airport out of sight of dz

the DZO responded in a very professional manner.

the folks that partied did not know of how serious this was as some few were told it was an off landing.

TM walked out and called in .

it was not practical for 300 folks to line up and search. I know I flew over the area at tree top level and higher with 15 power stabolised binos

big big area and few dirt roads

..

59 YEARS,OVERWEIGHT,BALDIND,X-GRUNT
LAST MIL. JUMP VIET-NAM(QUAN-TRI)
www.dzmemories.com

[wingnut 0]

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very few folks even knew something had occured

this is correct..... there was a rumor going around that somethig happened but that was about it..........


this goes out to noone in paticular....

skydiving is a sport were you can do everything right and still die... so it follows pretty much everywhere (some exceptions) that if someone dies or gets injured you keep on jumping.....yeah at smaller dropzones you proble stop jumping that day but at a bigger dz it's buisness as usual.. just look at eloy or other similarly sized dzs..... people might think i'm cold for saying this but so be it... if i had knew for a fact that he had died it wouldn't of affected my attendance at the party that night one bit... you ask if it would of mattered if i knew him, well it would of, i probly would of partied even more in his honor.... and i'd want people to do the same for me.....

______________________________________
"i have no reader's digest version"

[JohnRich 4]

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“When the accident occurred, there was only an hour and a half of daylight left to search for the body. Nightfall hampered search efforts and we resumed early this morning,” Peacock said Sunday. That is Upson County Sheriff Don Peacock.

If the professionals called off the search because it would be too difficult, why should people that have pretty much no idea what they are doing be out there looking. So how could htey call out to the authorities when they weren't even there. Plus walking around at night, flash light or not, I am sure they are very liekly to disturb the scene. Like i said before if you were there and don't know all the details then you shouldn't judge.

Maybe the search was only going to be difficult because it was dark. It's not like it was the Everglades swamp, was it? But those hundred-odd skydivers with flashlights and chem-lights, could possibly have negated that disadvantage.

How much do they have to know to walk in a straight line and look for a body? That doesn't seem to me to require a lot of professional training. When kids turn up missing in the woods, this is exactly what happens - volunteers are assigned areas to search. The authorities keep track of the big picture and know what areas are being covered, but volunteers largely do the footwork.

There was no scene to disturb, except around the body itself, which they could have stayed away from once it was discovered. This was not a crime scene where you're worried about preserving footprints, tire tracks and other trace evidence that might have been left behind by a killer. Since the body arrived by air, there was no ground evidence away from the body to preserve. Right?

I wasn't judging anything. I was asking a question. And I still am. You haven't convinced me.

[JohnRich 4]

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The people who were at the party were not likely to have known the the tandem passenger.

So let's change the scenario a bit. Suppose the victim had been a close personal friend of yours. Would you go ahead and party, knowing that your friends broken body was laying out there somewhere, being eaten by insects and animals overnight?

Second question: why should a stranger be treated any differently than a close personal friend?

[billvon 2,463]

>Would you go ahead and party, knowing that your friends broken
>body was laying out there somewhere, being eaten by insects and
>animals overnight?

I think that's sort of missing the point. He's not gonna care if his body gets eaten by animals; he's beyond caring at that point. Now, if he might have been alive, that's a different story - but that wasn't the case here.

I think the point is that any action taken - a search, a party, a quiet night of rememberance, whatever - is done for the benefit of the living, not the dead. The people there that night (specifically his friends and those who knew him) were in the best position to decide which was appropriate.

[RhondaLea 3]

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So let's change the scenario a bit. Suppose the victim had been a close personal friend of yours. Would you go ahead and party, knowing that your friends broken body was laying out there somewhere, being eaten by insects and animals overnight?

Okay...before we do your exercise, tell me this: were the victim's friends and family out in the woods looking for his body?

Or did they go home and wait for SAR to do it's job?

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Second question: why should a stranger be treated any differently than a close personal friend?

Because it's impractical.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[JohnRich 4]

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>Would you go ahead and party, knowing that your friends broken
>body was laying out there somewhere, being eaten by insects and
>animals overnight?

I think that's sort of missing the point. He's not gonna care if his body gets eaten by animals; he's beyond caring at that point.

I think the living should care.

Your argument goes to the whole "why do we have funerals?" debate. They're dead, so what do they care? Well, we should care, because if we want to be treated with respect in our own death, then we have a duty to treat others with respect in theirs.

Personally, I couldn't party or sleep knowing that a friend was laying out there, lost, un-cared for, and being mutilated by wild beasts.

When a Marine dies, one of his friends, in full uniform, accompanies his body all the way back to his home town where he will be buried. He stays with the casket on the plane, during loading and unloading, etc. And he stands at attention after burial, until after the last relative has departed the scene. That's respect for the dead.

But hey, if you don't care for all that, then just put it in your will to have your body thrown in the sewer when you die.

[namgrunt 0]

after burning up a chopper load of fuel leaning out the door .with some amount of experiance I can say to line up 100 or 300 jumpers with lights was not praticle.

we were spooking grourps of 6/8 deer and 3/4 turkeys all the time.
the woods are dense at least double canopy dense.

there is a swift running deep creek in middle. very few roads even dirt.

many times we could NOT see the ground

victum was dressed in black pants and a black satin type jacket.

to put 100 to 300 folks out in the cold dark would have prevented the state chopper equiped with forward looking IR from working and it was the best at the time.

as for the party ..do not blame the jumpers who partied as few if any even knew there had been a death.

this sounds cold and I do not mean it to sound that way but
people die every day ,folks we know and strangers ..the whorld does go on.

the best folks aviable were looking as good as they could. the rest didnot even know something had occured.

we need to send prayers and positive vibes to the family and the TM also the jumpers that assisted with the jump as they are going through hell now after only trying to do good.

..

59 YEARS,OVERWEIGHT,BALDIND,X-GRUNT
LAST MIL. JUMP VIET-NAM(QUAN-TRI)
www.dzmemories.com

[JohnRich 4]

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were the victim's friends and family out in the woods looking for his body?

I would have more respect for them if they did. Even if they had to do it against the orders of the authorities.

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Second question: why should a stranger be treated any differently than a close personal friend?

Because it's impractical.

Which do you think would leave a better image of the drop zone for the grieving family:
1) A hundred skydivers turn out to help search for the deceased, or;
2) A hundred skydivers party and get drunk.

I think at such a horrible time as this incident, sacrifices have to be made. I would skip the drunk, and help find the body. It's for the good of the deceased, the good of the deceased's family, and the good of the image of the drop zone and the sport.

Gosh, how impractical.

[billvon 2,463]

>Your argument goes to the whole "why do we have funerals?"
>debate. They're dead, so what do they care?

That, I think, is again missing the point. They don't care. But their families and friends sure do. Which is why funerals have all those people there, and which is why people have funerals happen even when there's no body to funeralize (funerate?)

>Personally, I couldn't party or sleep knowing that a friend was laying
>out there, lost, un-cared for, and being mutilated by wild beasts.

Whether or not I will be able to party or sleep will depend on whether or not my friend is injured or dead, not the disposition of his or her corpse. "Oh, look, Dave's body is safely in a bodybag. His death would have upset me, but now that he's decaying inside rather than outside, I will sleep soundly" is a thought that would not occur to me.

>When a Marine dies, one of his friends, in full uniform, accompanies
> his body all the way back to his home town where he will be buried.
> He stays with the casket on the plane, during loading and
> unloading, etc. And he stands at attention after burial, until after
> the last relative has departed the scene. That's respect for the dead.

And if he is blown to vapor, we still honor him in the same way - because we are honoring his memory, his deeds and his family and friends, not the meat that once contained him. A man is defined by what he does with his life, not what state his body is in after he dies.

>But hey, if you don't care for all that, then just put it in your will to
>have your body thrown in the sewer when you die.

Sorta inconsiderate for the sewer repair guys, no? After I die, I hope people get some use out of my organs. What's left over, bury or burn it.