Mockingbird 0 #301 June 30, 2006 QuoteIf my Flying Spaghetti Monsterism started to have real, tangible effects on your every day life, you'd start not to take Flying Spaghetti Monsterism seriously, but to take the consquences of seriously. I'm curious about this. How does my (or stevorino's) faith in Christ have real, tangible effects on your everyday life? (I sure hope you're not going to say that conservatives'-- who seem to be confused with Christians by liberals-- desire for stuff like the definition of marriage to remain unchanged, or wanting to ban the federal funding of embryonic stem cell research, is interfering with your life.)Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #302 June 30, 2006 Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to the Scripture, the natural man cannot receive the things of the spirit, so, as long as they try to find physical evidence, their efforts will be in vain. One must have a spiritual awakening to see the things of the spirit. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- QuoteAgain, this is only more evidence that your god doesn't want you to know he/she/it exists. It all ends up being "I felt god's presence" which is a totally subjective experience which by nature, does not provide evidence for anything outside of your capability to self-induce feelings you attribute to the presence of god. I can fantasize about naked women and induce feelings as well. It's called using my imagination. The key word there is "natural", meaning things that we can access through the five senses. This is one reason pagans made their gods out of wood or stone. Even the most intellectual of civilizations, which, I'm sure, today's intellectuals, think lived at the top of the heap, i.e. the Incas and the Aztecs, had many visible gods. Go back and read Windcatcher's original post in "I'm a Christian....." The born again experience is not something that we work up to convince ourselves that there is a god. Weren't you the person who's friend was in a motorcycle accident, and became a beleiver? By the way, depending upon only the five senses to provide all of one's input, just seems so confining and small. ---------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shaiziel 0 #303 June 30, 2006 QuoteReply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to the Scripture, the natural man cannot receive the things of the spirit, so, as long as they try to find physical evidence, their efforts will be in vain. One must have a spiritual awakening to see the things of the spirit. The key word there is "natural", meaning things that we can access through the five senses. This is one reason pagans made their gods out of wood or stone. Even the most intellectual of civilizations, which, I'm sure, today's intellectuals, think lived at the top of the heap, i.e. the Incas and the Aztecs, had many visible gods. Go back and read Windcatcher's original post in "I'm a Christian....." The born again experience is not something that we work up to convince ourselves that there is a god. Weren't you the person who's friend was in a motorcycle accident, and became a beleiver? No, not that I remember unless a story slipped my memory. Quote By the way, depending upon only the five senses to provide all of one's input, just seems so confining and small. Ironic that you say this the way you say it when the most devout among you will chant self-defeatist rhetoric about how weak and puny we are as humans. How can the natural experience the supernatural if the supernatural doesn't make itself available to be experienced in a natural manner? The only real argument I have against christianity is this. It is biblical that you must have faith in god to receive salvation. Faith is expressly necessary where there is a lack of certainty, knowledge, or evidence. By believing through faith, you show love for your god which is why your god demands faith. If you, as a natural being, were to experience god in a natural way (touching, tasting, smelling, hearing, seeing) you would have certainty through evidence and knowledge. Of course this is provided that no other possible explanation (very strict here) could be offered for what you experienced. It would have to be god, and god would have to be in the natural realm for you to naturally experience it. As a result, if you ever, with 100% certainty, KNEW, in such away that NO ONE could possibly deny it was true, that god existed due to your experiences, you would not need faith. It's not to say that you wouldn't love god. But you wouldn't be showing love through faith which god expressly demands in the bible as a prerequisite for salvation (and in my opinion, the only prerequisite that matters). The point of this being that christians, by definition, do not KNOW with 100% certainty that god exists. If they did, they could prove god in a way that no one could deny. But in order for that to happen, they would have to sacrifice faith and those without faith would have no problem 'realizing the truth'. I'm not saying god doesn't exist, I'm saying no one can know. You can believe, but you can't know. This is based on biblical principles.---------------------------------------- 6.8% - Almost there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,259 #304 June 30, 2006 QuoteThe key word there is "natural", meaning things that we can access through the five senses. This is one reason pagans made their gods out of wood or stone. Even the most intellectual of civilizations, which, I'm sure, today's intellectuals, think lived at the top of the heap, i.e. the Incas and the Aztecs, had many visible gods. What are you talking about? Gods made out of wood and stone like this one? Many 'pagan' polytheistic religions have just as sophisticated abstract concepts of divinity as the judeo-christian religionsDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
windcatcher 0 #305 June 30, 2006 It still amazes me so much ( Steve mentioned it a few posts ago) that for those who don't believe in Jesus, they either HAVE to convince Christians that it ISN'T the truth, or argue and give reasons why God's existence isn't realistic. I think that many people who live this way, simply do not have peace--and that is why they have to convince others Jesus isn't real---because if He IS real, they've got to stand before a Holy and Just God when they die. It blows my mind that anyone in America can say "Jesus is a myth" and people agree; but if I say "Buddha is a myth" all sorts of people will defend his existence. It doesn't bother some people if I say "Jesus is a myth, He doesn't exist, You're brainwashed if you believe in Him"---but if I say the EXACT same thing about Buddha, people start getting angry and ask how can I prove Buddha is a myth. IF you don't believe Jesus is real, then have peace with that and don't try getting Christians to believe otherwise. Don't argue with them, just simply accept the differences in belief. I have some incredible experiences with God, but even if I were to share them with you, it still would not matter---no matter the life changing story, the evidence, the incredible confirmation of God's love,etc, if you don't have faith, my experiences will mean nothing and "prove" nothing. Mother to the cutest little thing in the world... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,259 #306 June 30, 2006 Quotet blows my mind that anyone in America can say "Jesus is a myth" and people agree; but if I say "Buddha is a myth" all sorts of people will defend his existence. It doesn't bother some people if I say "Jesus is a myth, He doesn't exist, You're brainwashed if you believe in Him"---but if I say the EXACT same thing about Buddha, people start getting angry and ask how can I prove Buddha is a myth. Yeah, those people are called BuddhistsDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
windcatcher 0 #307 June 30, 2006 No, not necessarily. I've seen posts here before, from people who aren't buddhists; they will get upset at me and ask how dare I say something like "Buddha is a myth." The whole thing is, Buddha can not save people from anything--only Jesus can. Jesus is the only one who has power to save, and that why it doesn't bother satan when people don't believe in Jesus. However, if people believe in other things... Mother to the cutest little thing in the world... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,259 #308 June 30, 2006 Damn that satan for messing with peoples minds Look, in America today about, what, 90% of the population considers itself christian? So at the very most you're looking at about 10% who are ever going to agree with the statement that Jesus is a myth. Why does that 10% bother you so much? They are certainly not 'Most people' as you seem to believe.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #309 June 30, 2006 You apparently have no knowledge of what Buddhism is. I am not Buddhist. But from what I have read about it Buddhism is not a religion. It is a philosophy. Buddha is not a god but a descriptive term meaning enlightened one. Look it up. How can a philosophy be a myth? It's just a way of thinking. There are no gods in Buddhism. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
windcatcher 0 #310 June 30, 2006 No, I don't know very much about Buddhism, and yes, I am willing to admit that. I have been meaning to buy a book from B&N about the world's religions. Mother to the cutest little thing in the world... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
windcatcher 0 #311 June 30, 2006 QuoteDamn that satan for messing with peoples minds Look, in America today about, what, 90% of the population considers itself christian? So at the very most you're looking at about 10% who are ever going to agree with the statement that Jesus is a myth. Why does that 10% bother you so much? They are certainly not 'Most people' as you seem to believe. Okay, first off 90% of American is Christian? I highly doubt that. Going to church does not make one a Christian anymore than going to McDonalds makes one a hamburger. The 10% who don't believe in Jesus, I never said they bother me. I will share my faith with anyone who wants to hear it---however, if I have experienced incredible healing, faith, love, an incredible change in myself...I would want others to have those things as well. Mother to the cutest little thing in the world... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,259 #312 June 30, 2006 QuoteBuddhism is not a religion. It is a philosophy. Buddha is not a god but a descriptive term meaning enlightened one. Look it up. How can a philosophy be a myth? It's just a way of thinking. There are no gods in Buddhism. Buddha is no god, but to me he is analogous to prophets of other religions. What Buddhism does have is supposed knowledge of how the afterlife works, and what you have to do in life to improve your spirit and reach the final goal of nirvana. That to me tips it over the edge from philosophy to religion, along with institutions such as the Dalai Lama. Having said that, I haven't looked at it in too much depth, I may be mistaken in a few aspects.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #313 June 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteIf my Flying Spaghetti Monsterism started to have real, tangible effects on your every day life, you'd start not to take Flying Spaghetti Monsterism seriously, but to take the consquences of seriously. I'm curious about this. How does my (or stevorino's) faith in Christ have real, tangible effects on your everyday life? (I sure hope you're not going to say that conservatives'-- who seem to be confused with Christians by liberals-- desire for stuff like the definition of marriage to remain unchanged, or wanting to ban the federal funding of embryonic stem cell research, is interfering with your life.) The list I posted was straight from websites such as the Christian Coalition and Focus on the Family, both of which claim to be christian, yes? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #314 June 30, 2006 I did a quick search and came up with www.buddhanet.net they had an interesting pdf file that has all the common questions about Buddhism and their answers to them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #315 June 30, 2006 >By the way, depending upon only the five senses to provide all of >one's input, just seems so confining and small. It's all we've got. You can listen to/watch things that are not part of the real world (medically it's called "attending to internal stimuli" and is generally associated with pathology) or you can change how your senses work with drugs or pathology (generally called synesthesia) but in the end you perceive the world with your senses. Fortunately we have developed sufficient intelligence to interpret what we see, so our understanding is no longer limited to things we see/hear/smell/taste/feel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #316 June 30, 2006 Quote>By the way, depending upon only the five senses to provide all of >one's input, just seems so confining and small. It's all we've got. You can listen to/watch things that are not part of the real world (medically it's called "attending to internal stimuli" and is generally associated with pathology) or you can change how your senses work with drugs or pathology (generally called synesthesia) but in the end you perceive the world with your senses. Fortunately we have developed sufficient intelligence to interpret what we see, so our understanding is no longer limited to things we see/hear/smell/taste/feel. Wouldn't dreams be a form of "input" that doesn't involve using the five senses? Or do you think that they are just a conglomeration of memories that we did experience through the five senses? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #317 June 30, 2006 >Wouldn't dreams be a form of "input" that doesn't involve using the five senses? That's attending to internal stimuli. Most people do this to some degree, whether through dreams, or 'feeling uncomfortable' about something, or having an internal conversation with oneself. Basically we mentally synthesize/imagine alternative stimuli for our senses. If it become significant - i.e. if one ignores the external world in favor of an internal conversation, or hears voices that seemingly come from a separate intelligence - then we consider that pathology. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shaiziel 0 #318 June 30, 2006 Quotedesire for stuff like the definition of marriage to remain unchanged Note that the religious definition of marriage and the legal definition have no implicit need to be the same. Religion isn't meant to be fair to everyone. In the context of societal laws, we tend to take the opposite approach. If two guys (or two girls) want to "get married" to enjoy the LEGAL benefits of marriage as provided by the STATE (not god or a church institution), so be it. That is fair and just. Quote or wanting to ban the federal funding of embryonic stem cell research, is interfering with your life.) The idea behind government is to protect the people from which it derives it's power. The potential (and already realized) benefits of stem cell research far outweight the cost of terminating either: A. an unwanted pregnancy B. a cloned and relatively unparented embryo There are millions of people in the world that can benefit from stem cell therapy. Some of these people are your relatives and friends. Yet conservative christian pro-lifers are doing their best to prevent that from happening. In the context of working towards the greater good, conservative christian agendas are the enemy. QuoteHow does my (or stevorino's) faith in Christ have real, tangible effects on your everyday life? In conclusion, these are only 2 very important ways that your beliefs and subsequent actions (instigated by those beliefs), like voting in approval of the agendas and people who support them, have REAL, TANGIBLE effects on the everyday lives of those who do AND don't share those beliefs. I hope that answered the question.---------------------------------------- 6.8% - Almost there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shaiziel 0 #319 June 30, 2006 QuoteOkay, first off 90% of American is Christian? I highly doubt that. As of 2001, Less than 80% of the US population were considered of Christian affiliation and of that it looks as though 25% were catholic (take that for what you will.) The %age is trending downward but the number of participants has rose.---------------------------------------- 6.8% - Almost there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #320 June 30, 2006 Quote>Wouldn't dreams be a form of "input" that doesn't involve using the five senses? That's attending to internal stimuli. Most people do this to some degree, whether through dreams, or 'feeling uncomfortable' about something, or having an internal conversation with oneself. Basically we mentally synthesize/imagine alternative stimuli for our senses. If it become significant - i.e. if one ignores the external world in favor of an internal conversation, or hears voices that seemingly come from a separate intelligence - then we consider that pathology. Interesting... I suspect (in my own crazy opinion ;) that we will one day discover there is a lot more to such internal stimuli which should be attended to (much more than most "sane" people currently do). Just a feeling I have though... not something I can really explain. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #321 June 30, 2006 QuoteJust a feeling I have though... not something I can really explain. my voices tell me the same thing. that, and to burn stuff ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #322 June 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteJust a feeling I have though... not something I can really explain. my voices tell me the same thing. that, and to burn stuff You too? Cool. But please don't tell the people in white coats... I don't want them to come get me again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shaiziel 0 #323 June 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteJust a feeling I have though... not something I can really explain. my voices tell me the same thing. that, and to burn stuff Dude! Me too. I'm thinking we are on to some divine inspiration shit here. Lets start a religion. What should we call the thing behind the voices we hear?---------------------------------------- 6.8% - Almost there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #324 June 30, 2006 QuoteWhat should we call the thing behind the voices we hear? Probably a good idea to call it "God." If you call it anything else then it might be considered as pathology. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shaiziel 0 #325 June 30, 2006 Never stopped anyone else.---------------------------------------- 6.8% - Almost there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
