Plame rumors

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I should thing a media swing in the liberal direction would be taken for granted by anyone following politics - FOX being the fair and balanced exception

Sorry. FOX is no more "fair and balanced" than CNN or NBC or CBS or...

Fair and balanced media is hard to find these days. The only real option anyone has is to take in many sources, so that one can get a complete idea of thee facts hidden within all the editorializing.

For Great Deals on Gear

[druvaughn 0]

I would like to note that each of us seems to be trying to pull a trump card of bigger or more obscure words with each post.

I would have to agree with anvil -- FOX is the least biased, but with the degree to which the others are liberal, FOX does hold a truer line.

Anvil -- Zilch, nada, nope -- gotta laugh out of me -- I wasn't trying to say that the conservatives dislike minorities; I do have an artists rendition in my head of a gun toating redneck conservative that dislikes anything not white anglosaxin protestant (sp). Note the cartoonish picture, this is not a group label.

Conservatives don't hate minorities, the South does. The minority, more and more though, isn't divided along race as it is divided along the "Haves" and the "Have Nots". All on its own, this divide will seperate along racial or ehtnic lines, but not wholly.

As we group the red states it does seem to stretch away from the "educated" North (note the CT point of origin here). A red cross section including the bible belt and cotton fields. Red states that govern the bedroom, the govern the woman's body and that govern the right to bear arms ( what a lengthy discussion this could open). This is my delicate way of saying that I don't think the red states are ready to vote in a minority -- of any ethnicity, and I think voting in a woman is going to be a stretch. This is where Hillary beats Condi; Hillary carries the blue states and enough of the reds to pull out the victory. Yes GWB won on red alone, but he was a good ole boy from the South ( one I voted for mind you ).

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"Baseball is 90% mental. The other half is physical."

[TheAnvil 0]

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Conservatives don't hate minorities

True.

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, the South does.

Not true at all. I've lived in the South for quite some time. Yes, some southerners hate minorities - they themselves are in the minority.

I don't see Hillary picking up a single state GWB won against anyone. The mere mention of her name would drive conservatives to the polls in droves.

Still not convinced Dr. Rice will run. I hope she does, because I think she would make a fine President.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I would have to agree with anvil -- FOX is the least biased, but with the degree to which the others are liberal, FOX does hold a truer line.

Do you have any reason to believe that, or is it just your personal favorite?

I found this Annenberg survey to be interesting. The journalists' questions and responses can be found here,
and the publics questions and responses can be found here.

Some of the finds are pretty disturbing.

[kallend 1,649]

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Conservatives don't hate minorities

True.

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, the South does.

Not true at all. I've lived in the South for quite some time. Yes, some southerners hate minorities - they themselves are in the minority.

I don't see Hillary picking up a single state GWB won against anyone. The mere mention of her name would drive conservatives to the polls in droves.

Still not convinced Dr. Rice will run. I hope she does, because I think she would make a fine President.

And I'm not convinced Dr. Clinton will run (she has a JD degree).

PS, since you have now established the precedent, I shall take it as a personal attack if you address me as anything other than "Dr. Kallend" in future.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,435]

>Deny it all you like, Bill, my comments about the Dem's use of race
>are right on the money.

So far no one has cared about race but you, so from our (small) sampling here on DZ.com, it will be a concern primarily of conservatives.

> I feel Dr. Rice's candidacy would really cut into the potential of such
>lies to get out the vote for the left.

And I have a feeling if the republicans start harping on race it will really bite them in the ass.

>Another thing that has harmed the left is their almost monolithic
>stance on controversial issues.

Hmm. Consider Bush's 'faith in core values' and his 'steadfast determination', and how republicans used to slam Clinton because he changed his mind so often. Now waffling is good? It's hard to keep up sometimes.

>Perhaps most troubling for the left - and this is a quote from Bubba
>Clinton and I can't recall where - the Republican Party has become the
> party of ideas.

Perhaps, but recent poll results (and results/indictments in the real world) seem to indicate they have become the party of _bad_ ideas. As a result, the democrats are making a lot of progress in the polls. Not because they have any great new ideas (they don't) but because the republicans have made such a mess of things.

>Add to the above the fact that they have pushed forth virtually nothing
> but 'oppose Bush on everything' as a party for the past several years,
>and I see a party in deep trouble.

They were a few years ago. But people are bailing on the GOP not because the democrats offer anything better, but simply because they offer something different. They see a corrupt party leading the country into a forever war in the Middle East and bankrupting us here at home, and from that perspective even a lesser evil looks pretty good. When 58% of the country think the president is doing a bad job, and far more people think democrats would do a better job than republicans in congress, change becomes pretty inevitable.

[mnealtx 0]

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Vinnie, as you are the first person to bring race into this, I can't take your "evil democrats" speech very seriously. I am sure race will be a big issue, but it will be a hammer that the right uses to bludgeon the left with, much as you have done above (if it comes to that, which I doubt it will.)

So I'm guessing you don't recall the tirades about Rice and Powell being "house niggers" or "Uncle Toms"? Admittedly, it was from the "lunatic fringe", but .....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[TheAnvil 0]

Whyever would you do that, my Dear Kallend

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

I don't think they'll harp on it very much...I think the left will not harp on it as much because it wouldn't work effectively against a Rice candidacy. Without Messrs. Jackson, Sharpton, and Farrakhan rousing the masses via such antics, a drop in votes would be inevitable. Not an insignificant one at that.

Individuals waffle, 'tis true, and 'tis often bad - especially when the waffle based on public opinion vice what they think is actually correct, as did El Jefe Clintonista on many an occasion. My point was that there is very little diversity of thought within the Democrats on the national stage - one I still maintain - in comparison with their Republican counterparts.

I think a lot of conservatives - myself included - are not too happy with the current administration. Fiscal conservatism has been all but abandoned and the failure of conservatives to embrace true tax reform and take action on SS has irked more than a few of us. That being said, I don't see any Democrat capable of capturing any conservative leaning swing voters. In order to win any democratic primary they would have to portray themselves so far to the left that any such voters would revile them from a political standpoint.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[SkyDekker 1,147]

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Conservatives don't hate minorities

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True.

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, the South does.

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Not true at all. I've lived in the South for quite some time. Yes, some southerners hate minorities - they themselves are in the minority.

I don't see Hillary picking up a single state GWB won against anyone. The mere mention of her name would drive conservatives to the polls in droves.

Still not convinced Dr. Rice will run. I hope she does, because I think she would make a fine President.

funny, you have no problem making generalized sweeping statements about the left, yet if a general statement is made about southerners you get all bent out of shape..

[tso-d_chris 0]

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So I'm guessing you don't recall the tirades about Rice and Powell being "house n#@%$*s" or "Uncle Toms"? Admittedly, it was from the "lunatic fringe", but .....

I don't recall anything of the sort. Care to link to the posts?

[mnealtx 0]

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So I'm guessing you don't recall the tirades about Rice and Powell being "house n#@%$*s" or "Uncle Toms"? Admittedly, it was from the "lunatic fringe", but .....

I don't recall anything of the sort. Care to link to the posts?

Of course you dont....

Well, I thought it was just the lunatic fringe...I recalled seeing it in posts on DU.com...

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/harrBy.htm

It even made Wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Of course you dont....

I misunderstood your post. I thought you were implying that Speakers Corner had previous posts.

Lot's of BS in the media. Isolating a single example is kind of misleading.

[druvaughn 0]

Great find on the info -- indeed some of it is fairly disturbing, but I would think expected.
How many reporters are going to want to say they are biased, got something wrong, or find fault with their chosen career. The general public would be hard pressed to look into this same mirror with differing results.

As for my feelings on FOX -- it is more of a personal feeling from watching the group of them. I helped a friend write a senior thesis on the "casino style news production" of FOX and got a fairly indepth look at their show.

With regards to the media and the current state of our country though -- BAD/NEGATIVE news is much more often reported than GOOD/POSITIVE news. Take the death toll in Iraq: do we need day to day updates of the deaths of soldies or access to their funerals? Pick up a newspaper ( I haven't yet today ) or watch the first 5 minutes of almost any news program, the headlines are of "fault finding" or "wrong doing". In this vein, the sitting congress and president get a lot more negative press than positive press.

Along similar lines, what sells specific news shows to viewers : "The united way reached its fundraising goals in 57 markets this quarter" or "truck bomb explodes in kirkut"? We are Americans, we rubberneck other people's misfortunes. The news is always going to be negatively biased -- in this case, in favor of liberals because they hold no power and little decision making ability -- thus little blame.

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"Baseball is 90% mental. The other half is physical."

[billvon 2,435]

>Take the death toll in Iraq: do we need day to day updates of
>the deaths of soldies . . . .

Yes. People who die in the service of their country are more noteworthy, and more worthy of recognition, than Britney Spears' new boobs. I disagree wholeheartedly with the "let's forget about dead soldiers because they're so depressing" philosophy. Those people are dying and getting their arms and legs blown off so we don't have to; the least we could do is note their passing.

>The news is always going to be negatively biased -- in this case, in
> favor of liberals because they hold no power and little decision
>making ability -- thus little blame.

The people with no power make the decisions? Sorta backwards. The people with the power to make the decisions make the decisions. Who has the power in this case? News program viewers. They determine ratings, ratings determine ad revenues, and ad revenues determine which news program makes it. A news show that reported only happy news would die faster than a Barney cartoon shown at 10pm on Thursday night.

Now, you can argue that most of the people who watch/read the news are liberals, but that's close to arguing that most _people_ are liberals, and I have a feeling you don't want to go there.

[mnealtx 0]

Very good points, dru....

In summary: "If it bleeds, it leads...."

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tso-d_chris 0]

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In this vein, the sitting congress and president get a lot more negative press than positive press.

I believe this has more to do with their job performance, and not bias of the media.

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indeed some of it is fairly disturbing, but I would think expected.

I was referring to things like this:

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Asked if the government “has the right to limit the right of the press to report a story,” 44
percent of journalists said “never,” 48 percent said “rarely” and 6 percent said
“sometimes.” Among the public, just 29 percent said “never,” 17 percent said “rarely, 37
percent said “sometimes” and 14 percent said “always.”
. . .

In a series of questions asked only of the general public, freedom of the press ranked well
below other core constitutional values, especially among younger respondents, who also
tended to rank other values as less important than their elders did. Sixty-seven percent of
the public, and 58 percent of those 18 to 29, said it was “very important” for them to “live
in a country where news organizations can report the news without government
censorship.”
. . .
In contrast, 92 percent of the public (and 86 percent of those 18 to 29) rated religious
freedom as “very important,” 91 percent of the public (and 88 percent of 18-29 year-olds)
called a judicial system that treats everyone equally “very important,” 84 percent of the
public (and 74 percent of 18-29 year-olds) called honest elections “very important,” and
81 percent of the public (and 76 percent of 18-29 year-olds) said it was “very important”
to them “to live in a country where you can openly say what you think and criticize the
government.”
. . .

It makes me wonder how those who do not feel it is important to have a free press or to have the right to speak out against the government justify their beliefs.

[billvon 2,435]

> That being said, I don't see any Democrat capable of capturing
>any conservative leaning swing voters.

Not sure about that. The republicans are abandoning former GOP icons like Rick Santorum, and some democratic contenders are kicking butt. A few Iraqi vets are running for senate and house seats during the next election; it's going to be hard for the GOP to paint them as clueless hypocritical anti-war buffoons. I doubt that the next election will result in any changes in majorities, but I predict it will come quite close.

As an example, check out Brian Lentz, recently back from Iraq, who's running against Curt Weldon in 06. He has some very good ideas (based on firsthand experience) in terms of how to get troops out of Iraq and how to implement a workable reconstruction program. It's going to be hard to fight such a position with a "business as usual" campaign from the right.

[druvaughn 0]

Bill -- would it negate everything I have said to offer that only liberals read the news because conservatives can't read (earlier I discussed the cartoon vision in my head of the hick with the gun rack and all...).

I couldn't agree more that the men and women who give their lives in the service of this country should be honored to the fullest extent. My two points however, the burial services should be private if so deemed by the family, as well as the coffins returning home ( there is no name associated with this, thus no real honor in showing this ). And most news (especially over internet: Yahoo news and CNN, my to daily stops) doesn't publish the soldier's names, it only says that another died and the total dead is now_____. This isn't honor, this is the news media focusing on the total as a way to shift public opinion. If you feel that a report that says "two soldiers died after a roadside bomb in Iraq" honors those two soldiers, then we disagree, I think it does little to honor them. Please let me stress, again, they do deserve to be honored. I would think a more proper way : "John Smith was killed in action today while serving his country." This certainly is more dignified than is usually conveyed.

On the second point -- we chose to watch negative news (I would however at least glance, honestly, at Britney's new rack) instaed of happy news. We determine the ratings ..... In doing so, the news negatively focuses on the conservative base in power "helping" them look bad, this favors the liberals.

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"Baseball is 90% mental. The other half is physical."

[tso-d_chris 0]

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This isn't honor, this is the news media focusing on the total as a way to shift public opinion.

I think it is the medias way of informing the public of facts. If those facts shift public opinion, that is not the fault of the media. That is the fault of an administration trying to sell an unjustified war to the public.

I do not feel that, in light of the First Amendment, the government has the authority to tell the media that bodies or coffins should not be shown, nor that the death count should not be reported. In fact, IMO they should also be reporting the number of civilian casualties, since the latest reason excuse for the war is to help the Iraqi people by bringing them American values and Democracy.

[billvon 2,435]

>would it negate everything I have said to offer that only liberals read
> the news because conservatives can't read. . .

Well, but then again, liberals just read the comics . . .

>My two points however, the burial services should be private if so
> deemed by the family, as well as the coffins returning home . . .

Agree on the burial. I agree on the coffins too. However, the way to make the coffin thing private is to NOT TAKE ANY PICTURES OF THEM or allow them to be photographed by news media. I have no sympathy for people who take pictures of coffins and then are upset when those pictures appear elsewhere, which is what happened in the case of the most recent release of coffin pictures.

>And most news (especially over internet: Yahoo news and CNN, my to
> daily stops) doesn't publish the soldier's names, it only says that
> another died and the total dead is now_____.

They report names whenever they have them. Let's take Tuesday; one soldier died. From CNN:

"A U.S. soldier died Tuesday from a "non-hostile" gunshot wound at a forward operating base near Mosul, the military said Thursday.

The soldier was assigned to Regimental Combat Team 2, 2nd Marine Division, II Marine Expeditionary Force (Forward). The soldier's name was being withheld pending notification of relatives and release by the Department of Defense, the military said in a statement."

I think not releasing names until the family has been notified is a good thing, even if it means that the initial reports are anonymous. Once they are notified, most news services have a place like this to see their names:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/iraq/casualties/facesofthefallen.htm

> This isn't honor, this is
> the news media focusing on the total as a way to shift public
> opinion.

The news media doesn't care about public opinion. They care about ratings. People want to hear about deaths in Iraq because US soldiers dying are important to them.

>We determine the ratings ..... In doing so, the news negatively
>focuses on the conservative base in power "helping" them look bad,
> this favors the liberals.

Of course. And while Clinton was in office, the media made every semen stain front page news; this favored the conservatives. Bad news sells, and the party in power generally creates the bad news, so it's always going to favor the out-of-power party.

[livendive 8]

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most if not all of the new and innovative ideas for government are coming out of the right these days

And therein lies the point that I've tried to make several times, that both the Democrats and Republicans are liberal parties. Our two primary choices are "the left" and "the other left".

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[druvaughn 0]

wait just a damn minute here -- I read the comics...really funny... well done

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"Baseball is 90% mental. The other half is physical."

[SpeedRacer 1]

all of these are very interesting points from both sides, but what about Britney Spears' boobs?

Speed Racer
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[dharma1976 0]

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Hilary takes that one on paper? I think not dude. Dr. Rice would destroy her.

President Rice. Nice ring to it.

yay just what we need

Cunt-a-lisa Rice in office....oh yeah then we can really call our president a liar...or a back peddler, this woman makes John Kerry look like a surefooted dude who never changed his views on anything...

But I have never seen someone so artfully dodge questions about things or say somethign comp0letely different that the reality of what she had already said when brought to question for her lies...

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.