Evangelism and the Air Force

[masterblaster72 0]

Funny that those who do things blatantly unpatriotic profess to be the most patriotic. These evangelical Christians aren't much better than the Taliban.

Sad that some need to be reminded that this is America, where religion has absolutely no place in government institutions.

clicky
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ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. - A Jewish father of two Air Force Academy cadets sued the Air Force on Thursday, claiming senior officers and cadets illegally imposed Christianity on others at the school.

The lawsuit was filed in federal court by Mikey Weinstein, an academy graduate and outspoken critic of the school's handling of religion.

Over the past decade or more, the lawsuit claims, academy leaders have fostered an environment of religious intolerance at the Colorado school, in violation of the First Amendment.

Weinstein has one son who graduated from the academy last year and another who is a junior there. Both were subjected to anti-Semitic slurs from evangelical Christian cadets, he said.

Weinstein, who lives in Albuquerque, claims that evangelical Christians at the school have coerced attendance at religious services and prayers at official events, among other things.

"It's a shocking disgrace that I had to file this thing," he told The Associated Press.

The Air Force declined immediate comment. Members of the Air Force Academy's Board of Visitors also declined to comment. The oversight panel, which includes members of Congress, met in Washington on Thursday.

Cadets, watchdog groups and a former chaplain at the academy have alleged that religious intolerance is widespread at the school. On Aug. 29, the Air Force issued guidelines discouraging public prayer at official functions and urging commanders to be sensitive about personal expressions of religious faith.

There have been complaints at the academy that a Jewish cadet was told the Holocaust was revenge for the death of Jesus and that another Jew was called a Christ killer by a fellow cadet. A banner in the football team's locker room read: "I am a Christian first and last ... I am a member of Team Jesus Christ."

Also, there have been complaints that cadets were pressured to attend chapel, that academy staffers put New Testament verses in government e-mail, and that cadets used the e-mail system to encourage others to see the Mel Gibson movie "The Passion of the Christ."

The lawsuit, which names the Air Force and its acting secretary, Pete Geren, as defendants, asks the Air Force to prohibit its members — including chaplains — from evangelizing and proselytizing or in any related way attempting "to involuntarily convert, pressure, exhort or persuade a fellow member of the USAF to accept their own religious beliefs while on duty."

The lawsuit claims that despite the new guidelines, Air Force officials "have made it clear that they have no intent to actually remedy the unconstitutional practices."

The lawsuit cites a remark by Brig. General Cecil R. Richardson, the Air Force deputy chief of chaplains. "We will not proselytize, but we reserve the right to evangelize the unchurched," he said in a New York Times article published in July.

The Air Force and Geren have refused "to make a clear statement that this is not its policy," despite repeated requests from Weinstein, the lawsuit says.

In June, an Air Force task force said it found no overt religious discrimination but observed a lack of sensitivity among some and confusion over what is permissible in sharing one's faith.

After a July visit to the academy, a team from the Yale Divinity School issued a report last month saying it found lingering problems among the academy's chaplains, whose activities may conflict with the goals of school leaders and the Air Force overall.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[jkm2500 0]

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Sad that some need to be reminded that this is America, where religion has absolutely no place in government institutions.

So, sre you saying that since I am a member of the Armed Forces that I am not allowed to be religious?

Or, I am not allowed to talk about religion at work?

Or, I am not allowed to make comments about other people's religions?

Or, I that an utterance of religion is unconstitutional?

In my 7 years on active duty every function that occured was preceeded with prayer. I don't think that it is forcing anyone to be religious. It allows people the opportunity to express themselves. Besides, isnt religion a personal thing? How can I force my religion on someone else? Do I twist their arm and all of a sudden they believe? Or because they heard me pray they are all of a sudden so moved that they convert and stop all the hedonistic behavior that qualified them as heathens?

Seperation of church and state means that Government cannot sponser a religion and then require people to attend. I think that people getting up in arms over stuff like this forget that in a public place I can say just about whatever I want, and you have to hear it. That is the freedom of speech. So, if I feel that I want to express my religiosity, I have the same right to do so as you do to disregard it.

Or, are you saying that my rights mean less than yours?

The primary purpose of the Armed Forces is to prepare for and to prevail in combat should the need arise.

[billvon 2,434]

>So, sre you saying that since I am a member of the Armed Forces
>that I am not allowed to be religious?

Nope, you can be religious.

>Or, I am not allowed to talk about religion at work?

Nope, you can talk about religion to people who are free to say "get lost" (i.e. your equals.) You CANNOT preach religion to people who have to listen to you (i.e. your subordinates or employees.) That's true in private industry as well. Goes for hitting on women too.

>Or, I am not allowed to make comments about other people's
>religions?

See above.

>Or, I that an utterance of religion is unconstitutional?

Nope.

>In my 7 years on active duty every function that occured was
> preceeded with prayer. I don't think that it is forcing anyone to be
> religious. It allows people the opportunity to express themselves.

That's fine, as long as people are free to not say it if they don't want to.

>Besides, isnt religion a personal thing? How can I force my religion
>on someone else?

By ordering them to listen to your preaching, or by preaching at them when they cannot leave.

>Do I twist their arm and all of a sudden they believe?

Many christians believe not only that that is a good idea, but it is their obligation to "twist their arm." Such tactics have no place in a government institution.

>Seperation of church and state means that Government cannot
> sponser a religion and then require people to attend. I think that
> people getting up in arms over stuff like this forget that in a public
> place I can say just about whatever I want, and you have to hear it.

Absolutely not! If you stand on a streetcorner and preach I can leave. If you stand at a podium in a classroom and preach, the students cannot leave. Big difference there.

>So, if I feel that I want to express my religiosity, I have the same
> right to do so as you do to disregard it.

Once you are in a position of power over people, you have an obligation to not misuse that power. That includes not using your power to force people to listen to your preaching.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

This is not the first time something like this has surfaced at the Air Force Academy. In fact I'm wondering if this a new incident, or just left over from earlier this summer?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 2,434]

>This is not the first time something like this has surfaced at the Air Force Academy.

Nope. A good friend of mine was sexually assaulted by an Air Force recruiter trying to sell her on the Academy. Not to say it's a widespread problem, but problems do exist.

[jkm2500 0]

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By ordering them to listen to your preaching, or by preaching at them when they cannot leave.

There is a stipulation that says that as an officer you cannot give an unlawful order. Ordering someone to sit and listen to you about religion would be considered an unlawful order and therefore would be required to not be followed.

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Absolutely not! If you stand on a streetcorner and preach I can leave. If you stand at a podium in a classroom and preach, the students cannot leave. Big difference there.

Bill I agree with you on this one. Maybe I misstated, or maybe you misheard(read). However when I said

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Seperation of church and state means that Government cannot sponser a religion and then require people to attend.

That means that a teacher cannot force students to listen to any specific religion. It also means that a police officer cannot stop you on the side of the road to tell you about Jesus. It also means that a government official cannot require that you are a certain religion in order to get a job.

However what it doesnt mean is that I am forbidden to discuss my religion in an open setting at work, especially with other people of my religion. It also doesnt mean that I cant say things that might be offensive to you because you are a different religion (doesn't say much for courtesy but I'm making a point here). It also doesn't say that I am forbidden to invite you to a religious ceremony, gathering etc.

I hope that clears things up.

The primary purpose of the Armed Forces is to prepare for and to prevail in combat should the need arise.

[billvon 2,434]

>Ordering someone to sit and listen to you about religion would be
>considered an unlawful order and therefore would be required to not
>be followed.

But often marginal orders _are_ followed; that's what the military is all about. If the order is "Sit here and take notes as I lecture" and you sneak in a few references to the bible amidst a lecture on military culture - are they free to leave? (Not saying you would do that.)

> It also doesn't say that I am forbidden to invite you to a religious
> ceremony, gathering etc.

Actually, in some cases, it does. If the subordinate/employee is invited in a work environment during work hours, it may well be very inappropriate. Imagine asking a female employee out on a date every day. After she said "no" few times, and you applied more pressure, she'd have the beginnings of a harassement case.

[kallend 1,648]

Unfortunately the AF Academy is not new to harassment scandals.

www.au.af.mil/au/aul/school/asbc/sexafa.htm

Clearly a leadership/culture issue there.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Guest 1010]

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Unfortunately the AF Academy is not new to harassment scandals.

www.au.af.mil/au/aul/school/asbc/sexafa.htm

Clearly a leadership/culture issue there.

yeah, pretty sure no other university has had sex scandals.

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[kallend 1,648]

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Unfortunately the AF Academy is not new to harassment scandals.

www.au.af.mil/au/aul/school/asbc/sexafa.htm

Clearly a leadership/culture issue there.

yeah, pretty sure no other university has had sex scandals.

Not many universities have the same level of coercive power as the military has over its cadets.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Guest 1010]

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Unfortunately the AF Academy is not new to harassment scandals.

www.au.af.mil/au/aul/school/asbc/sexafa.htm

Clearly a leadership/culture issue there.

yeah, pretty sure no other university has had sex scandals.

Not many universities have the same level of coercive power as the military has over its cadets.

In the past few years the two "main" state schools in my state have had several accidental deaths due to alcohol poisoining; several murders; hate crimes, rapes, and sexual harassment lawsuits filed and settled/decided in favor of the plaintiffs. Taken together only the murder made the national news for a very brief time.

While I agree it would seem that the Air Force Academy can do a better job in dealing with the issues involved with having women on campus, having national attention seems a bit much. Seems just another way the left wishes to beat down recruiting, not that the AFA didn't hand you the hammer.

Coercive? I'm not familiar with the current details, but all cadets are free to leave. At some point they incur an enlisted committment in lieu of tuition reimbursement.

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[kallend 1,648]

I guess you didn;t read the documents in my link. While sex and drinking certainly occur at all colleges, the AF Academy apparently had a systemic problem stemming from poor leadership. Not altogether unlike Tailhook in the Navy.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[StreetScooby 5]

So, everything else being reasonably equal, who would make Captain first following current AFA leadership? A devout Christian, or someone who isn't?

We are all engines of karma

[rehmwa 2]

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So, everything else being reasonably equal, who would make Captain first following current AFA leadership? A devout Christian, or someone who isn't?

Whichever one has rank seniority (ALL other things being equal).

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[BikerBabe 0]

Sigh.



First, let me state my qualifications for responding to this post: I am a female graduate of the US Air Force Academy, who at the time I was there, considered myself to be agnostic. I think this makes me a good source of info on the environment related to both of the issues brought up in this thread.

I can only relate personal experiences. I was at the academy in the mid to late 90s.

I will say that I am NOT easily offended, and I am not your typical "girl". What many see as harrassment I do not get offended by. Perhaps I should, but that is a different discussion. The AFA gave me a very thick skin and to most of the complainers I have a strong desire to say "suck it up and drive on".

Now, to address some of these issues.

1. Religion. Looking at it from an agnostic/non-Christian point of view, I agree that the complaints brought forth in the lawsuit (and the previous studies) are somewhat valid. In basic training, there was nightly chapel. If you did not go, you were dubbed "heathen flight" and often forced to do extra marching drills or other such mundane basic training-style activities like reciting required knowledge, dropping for push-ups, etc. This has of course all gone away since the trainers at the AFA are no longer allowed to drop people for push-ups, the basic cadets are no longer required to memorize knowledge, no longer required to run in combat boots, etc. I'm not sure what they are required to do anymore except complain about being harrassed.

Anyway, I'll relate an experience I had during my 3-degree (spophomore) year in Military history class. My instructor was a major in the AF and a very intelligent person when it came to this subject. He was also very intimidating, as most officers are to young cadets, but he had a dominant personality. One day in class we were talking about Alexander the Great's victories, and my instructor mentioned that ol' Alex had been "in the zone". I asked what he meant by that.

He answered "favored by God." Well, at this point in my cadet life, I had not yet learned to appreciate the fine art of holding my tongue, so I asked him how he knew that. His answer was that all great military leaders were blessed by God to win their keystone battles/campaigns. I of course argued this ridiculous point, letting him know that I did not believe that to be the case, etc. He told me (and the rest of the class, by the way) that I needed to rethink my beliefs before it was too late. (A not-so-veiled attempt at telling me I was going to hell...)

Anyway, the class went on from there, but now that I had a bone, I, like a dog, didn't give up. For the rest of the semester, anytime he mentioned something asinine like this, I called him on it. He didn't like me. Not in the least bit. I had decided my grade was probably in the toilet anyway, so why not argue?

No, I never reported him. Reporting your peers or superiors was not something that was done. You would get loads of shit for "pimping" your classmates/peers, and the horrors one would go through for reporting an officer I can only begin to imagine (court marshal, anyone?)

Want to know the outcome of my history class experience? I got an A+. Highest in the class. He may not have agreed with me or liked me, but at least he respected my willingness to stand up for myself.

Yeah, it happened. I used to be an indignant martyr for those types of arguments. Now I say suck it up and drive on. Find a community of AF Academy grads, and the tone of discussion will be VERY different than the righteous indignation you see here. The tone would more be "suck it up and drive on", and stop pimping your classmates. The complainant in this case would be the subject of ridicule, rather than the Academy or it's culture. He would be considered disloyal to the "long blue line", as it were.

As for me...Because they have destroyed everything that was the AFA and made it unique and turned into just another college, I feel almost no loyalty anymore. What I went through was physically, mentally, empotionally, and spiritually demanding. Now, all I see is whining come out of that place. Whining that it's too hard physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.

I am truly scared for the Air Force as this new breed of overly sensitive feel-good officer comes into leadership positions.

It makes me sad.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[StreetScooby 5]

Thanks for sharing this! God bless you for serving our country.

We are all engines of karma

[rehmwa 2]

Turns out you weren't downgraded because of your beliefs. But you had to suck it up and wait to eventually find that out. Today, non one would wait beyond the first day before complaining, they would assume they'd get a lousy grade and cry wolf.

And we're surprised that both sides are becoming more defensive and cynical.

nice story - thanks

2245.33423141592

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[BikerBabe 0]

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Today, non one would wait beyond the first day before complaining, they would assume they'd get a lousy grade and cry wolf.

Exactly.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[gaptooth 0]

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Today, non one would wait beyond the first day before complaining, they would assume they'd get a lousy grade and cry wolf.

Exactly.

Two things before I start:
#1: I’ve never attended the Zoo
#2: I’m an enlisted dude, just so everyone knows my frame of reference

I’m sorry to get off subject here (evangelism), but I have to question this remark…surely you don’t mean to say that everyone that has a problem at the Academy is some wussy that is complaining about the problems they have. Most people I know will say that they had it harder then the people who came behind them, whether they be officer (OTS, ROTC, the Zoo) or enlisted (basic training). The brand new Lts (from the AFA) I’ve worked with have, for the most part, been good officers. Just my thoughts.

Chris

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Thanks for the info Andy and having you numerous times in my short skydiving career, I can totally picture you confronting this professor/officer you speak of. I've met a lot of AFA cadets who jump here in Colorado and I can't think of one single guy or gal who is a bad person. They all represent themselves with a maturity level beyond what others of the same age can. So the AFA can't be all that bad to these students. I just hope that cases like this help clean up the potential crap that may be going on there.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Tink1717 2]

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So, sre you saying that since I am a member of the Armed Forces that I am not allowed to be religious?

No, you can be as religious as you want to be. From fundie to atheist. And everything in between.

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Or, I am not allowed to talk about religion at work?

Sort of. You are not allowed to advance your religion, inhibit or disparage the religion, or lack thereof, of any other. You must be neutral while in uniform.

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Or, I am not allowed to make comments about other people's religions?

You are not allowed to disparage the religion, or lack thereof, of others while in uniform.

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Or, I that an utterance of religion is unconstitutional?

What?

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In my 7 years on active duty every function that occured was preceeded with prayer.

Unless such participation was voluntary and no action, formal or otherwise, was taken against those who opted out, the prayer ceremony was uncostitutional, and therefore illegal.

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I don't think that it is forcing anyone to be religious.

You're wrong. Coercing through peer pressure or exclusion is forcing.

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How can I force my religion on someone else?

Through coercion, peer pressure, exclusion, threat or actual violence, innuendo or any of the other methods that foster a hostile environment.

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Or because they heard me pray they are all of a sudden so moved that they convert and stop all the hedonistic behavior that qualified them as heathens?

Getting a little full of yourself aren't you?

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Separation of church and state means that Government cannot sponsor a religion and then require people to attend.

It means that and much more. The SCOTUS, which governs even the UCMJ has held the the constitutional dictate of separation of church and state means:

Laws enacted by the state must:
1. have a secular (non religious) purpose.
2. show neutrality between religions (i.e. Christianity and Buddhism) and between religion and non-religion (i.e. Christianity and atheism)
3. Foster no excessive entanglement.

So, like it or not, when you are in uniform, you must be neutral in matters of religion. The same applies to me when I'm in uniform.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[kallend 1,648]

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Turns out you weren't downgraded because of your beliefs. But you had to suck it up and wait to eventually find that out. Today, non one would wait beyond the first day before complaining, they would assume they'd get a lousy grade and cry wolf.

And we're surprised that both sides are becoming more defensive and cynical.

nice story - thanks

2245.33423141592

What if the wolf is real, like at the end of the fable?

Just because you can suck it up doesn't mean you should have to.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[larsrulz 0]

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Sigh.

Gotta agree. I went through BCT back in 2000 and some, but not all changed, although I have a bit different perspective as a male christian.

Did terms such as "heathen flight" live on? Yes, but I always heard them used in a jokingly, non-derogative manner; I suppose thin-skinned people might be seriously bothered by it.

But the feeling of suck it up and drive on left hand-in-hand with the change of training at the academy, and really military wide, because West Point and the Naval Academy beat USAFA to the change by a few years. I was the last smack class to still have the old training and recognition, then again I'm sure you could say I didn't half half of what you did.

The academy became much more feeling-friendly as they left their old ways behind, but I certainly never caught any of many of the feelings that so many complain about, nor did my Jewish or Muslim classmates who I've asked about since these religious issues came up. So were there some situations which weren't politically correct? Sure, but I've seen and heard far worse at the dropzone and I make nothing of it.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[RMURRAY 1]

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God bless you for serving our country.

This really gives me the creeps. Should be "I respect you for serving our country" or something like that. WTF does God have to do with it.

rm

[rehmwa 2]

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What if the wolf is real, like at the end of the fable?

Just because you can suck it up doesn't mean you should have to.

That's the real point isn't it? The term "cry wolf" doesn't not apply when the wolf is real - by definition. Look a few posts above, you are seeing people equating peer pressure with actual threats and actions of physical violence. I can certainly draw the line between 'peer pressure' and physical violence - especially in people that I want to be leaders and critical thinkers.

Do you want an officer that cries wolf when they get peer pressure or a bit of psychological pressure and calls out for rather intangible issues? NO, and this type of politics is just as bad as pushing the opposite agenda.

Do you want an officer who serves our country that takes action when they get improperly passed over for promotion/duties, or gets actual threats of violence or sees things that are tangibly wrong? YES, definitely.

We need people that recognize a real problem rather than just pushing an agenda and looking for any excuse to sound out about it. Isn't that Andy's post in a nutshell?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants