Why didn't they leave?

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

hypocrite-a person given to hypocrisy

hypocrisy-the professing of beliefs or virtues one does not possess


THIS is the point of the post, no socioeconomic status, abilty, etc. The pure HYPOCRISY of the behavior of those stuck by their own free will blaming someone else for not doing what they themselves did not even attempt to do.

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[Hooknswoop 19]

Again, spot on.

Derek

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

Thanks, even the horses understand now

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[billvon 2,467]

>If you didn't leave because you didn't think it was going to be that bad,
> you made the same mistake FEMA did and it would be hypocritical to
>criticize FEMA now.

FEMA should be be smarter than the worst planners in New Orleans. If not, we're doomed.

>It is kinda like rear-ending someone because you were following too
>close and then getting out and yelling at the person that hit you because
>they were following too close.

I'm thinking it's more like getting drunk, having a wreck, and losing an arm - then going to a hospital and having the doctor accidentally sever your other arm. Sure, both of you did stupid stuff, and caused an equally bad thing to happen. But doctors tend to hold themselves to higher standards than drunk drivers (which is good.)

That being said, I think there is more than enough blaming going on. There have been serious deficits in our response to this tragedy, but this is not the time to assign blame. Get everyone out, get refugees resettled, deal with the bodies, deal with the pathogen threats (Dengue, West Nile) - then start blamestorming.

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

Yes I hope FEMA is smarter, but the case that was referenced was the 'stayed behind' faulting FEMA for not knowing and being ill prepared when they did 'not know' and were 'ill prepared'.



However deplorable the conditions at the 'shelters' were, I could argue that the conditions in an attic would be the same or worse. As bad as the shelter was it was one (albeit tiny) step above an attic in a flooded house. Can't imagine not having human waste in the attic, lack of provisions....at least there was no oil-sewer-flood water below, you could move around and find shade and not be subject to the attic 'sauna effect', plus you are that much closer to the aid when it arrives. I am not saying conditions were ideal, or even humane, but just a notch above 'trapped'. Now if there was even a slight improvement in condition, the losing an arm analogy would not work.

Blame itself is spreading like a disease right now. We can not go back, but only learn and move forward (hopefully wiser all around).

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[FallRate 0]

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That being said, I think there is more than enough blaming going on. There have been serious deficits in our response to this tragedy, but this is not the time to assign blame. Get everyone out, get refugees resettled, deal with the bodies, deal with the pathogen threats (Dengue, West Nile) - then start blamestorming.

I agree.

Has hell frozen over?

FallRate

[billvon 2,467]

> but the case that was referenced was the 'stayed behind' faulting FEMA
>for not knowing and being ill prepared when they did 'not know' and were
>'ill prepared'.

No argument there. But as a society we often find ourselves rescuing the less capable members of our society. You're a lot more likely to have to rescue the drunken fool who's street racing than the pediatrician driving home from work. And to our credit we rescue them first, then blame them for it later. Even if they are idiots.

That's not to say that everyone who stayed behind in New Orleans was an idiot; we don't know why some of those people stayed. But even if they all turn out to be too dumb to know which direction "away from New Orleans" is, or understand the word "evacuation", it doesn't matter much - we should still rescue them first, then call them hypocrites later.

[slug 1]

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The people of NO were told to leave every day for three days before Katrina made landfall. The ones that stayed, couldn't afford to leave.

One of my colleagues told me when i asked him the same question "Why didn't they leave?" told me "The people that didn't leave are doing the same thing there now they were doing before the floods, robbing, killing and stealing" Got me to thinking. By the way this gentleman is a NO native.

Hi Rwieder

Based on the above your saying that the gentleman you talked to siad the 100,000 plus folks who didn't leave NO ( "including children old folks, poor folks, sick folks dr's nurses tourists.) Stayed so they could continue robbing killing and stealing like they were doing befor the floods.

Do you believe this or are you just repeating what someone said?

If that your corvett in your avator? and you get paid by the oil industry? The same oil industry that some people think are profiteering (kind of like looting and stealing) from the disaster caused by Katrina?

We all know that the media sometimes doesn't get the facts straight in skydiving accidents. But your posting a news story based on second hand info about 6 looters being killed for attacking a contractor convoy

Here's a fact all the banks in the US are going to closed on monday.You think thats because their afraid of looters or because there's going to be a run on the bank

Have a nice day and enjoy skydiving reardless of the price, you can afford it

R.I.P.

[Michele 1]

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Here's a fact all the banks in the US are going to closed on monday.You think thats because their afraid of looters or because there's going to be a run on the bank

Um, the banks are closed tomorrow because of a national holiday...Labor Day.

No run on the banks closed them for tomorrow; all government, city and state and fed, will be closed. Just normal stuff.

BTW, Hook, I got your point...and agree with it.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[slug 1]

Quote

Quote

Here's a fact all the banks in the US are going to closed on monday.You think thats because their afraid of looters or because there's going to be a run on the bank

Um, the banks are closed tomorrow because of a national holiday...Labor Day.

No run on the banks closed them for tomorrow; all government, city and state and fed, will be closed. Just normal stuff.

BTW, Hook, I got your point...and agree with it.

Ciels-
Michele

Hi Michele

Really Thanks for the info, i heard about it from a friend of a friend who heard it at starbucks

I'm glad you set me straight on the bank rumor, trust me i trust you

I'll be able to sleep tonight.

R.I.P.

[kallend 1,673]

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> but the case that was referenced was the 'stayed behind' faulting FEMA
>for not knowing and being ill prepared when they did 'not know' and were
>'ill prepared'.

No argument there. But as a society we often find ourselves rescuing the less capable members of our society. You're a lot more likely to have to rescue the drunken fool who's street racing than the pediatrician driving home from work. And to our credit we rescue them first, then blame them for it later. Even if they are idiots.

That's not to say that everyone who stayed behind in New Orleans was an idiot; we don't know why some of those people stayed. But even if they all turn out to be too dumb to know which direction "away from New Orleans" is, or understand the word "evacuation", it doesn't matter much - we should still rescue them first, then call them hypocrites later.

Seems to me we have a deliberate campaign started by the right wing blogs to deflect criticism from those who should be held to the highest standards of performance (FEMA, DHS) to the victims of the tragedy. Strange, when you consider how the right is usually anti-fed.

FEMA took 3 days to decide that this was an "incident of national significance", and we all saw the head of DHS looking like a complete idiot when speaking to the reporter on TV.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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FEMA took 3 days to decide that this was an "incident of national significance", and we all saw the head of DHS looking like a complete idiot when speaking to the reporter on TV.

Thats not true, my ex works for homeland security, and he knew withen a few hours of it hitting that he would be going there to organize help. Theres other things to consider like, amount to send, what to send, safety of people being sent... etc... even though he knew right away , he just left last friday... its not black and white

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[heidihagen 0]

while i agree, this article may shed some light why so many stayed behind. most of the people hit were 9th ward with no way out. with that being said, blame nagin --the guy with no plan. i'm sure school busses could have taken care of this. it's kind of surreal reading this now...
"The only dangerous hurricanes so far are the ones we've been drinking,"

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By MARY FOSTER, Associated Press Writer
Sun Aug 28, 7:52 AM ET
NEW ORLEANS - Coastal residents jammed freeways and gas stations as they rushed to get out of the way of Hurricane Katrina, which was upgraded to a Category 4 storm Sunday, with sustained winds of 160 mph, the National Hurricane Center said.

The massive storm appeared headed for New Orleans and the Louisiana coast.

"Ladies and gentlemen, this is not a test. This is the real deal," New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin said at a news conference. "Board up your homes, make sure you have enough medicine, make sure the car has enough gas. Do all things you normally do for a hurricane but treat this one differently because it is pointed towards New Orleans."

Katrina gained strength overnight, become a Category 4 monster with 145 mph sustained winds as it moved over the warm waters of the Gulf of Mexico early Sunday.The storm formed in the Bahamas and ripped across South Florida on Thursday, causing nine deaths, before moving into the Gulf of Mexico.

A hurricane watch extended from Louisiana to the Alabama-Florida border, and President Bush declared a state of emergency in Louisiana. His spokesman urged residents along the coast to heed authorities' advice to evacuate.

"At this juncture, all we can do is pray it doesn't come this way and tear us up," said Jeannette Ruboyianes, owner of the Day Dream Inn at Grand Isle, Louisiana's only inhabited barrier island.

Katrina could be especially devastating if it strikes New Orleans because the city sits below sea level and is dependent on levees and pumps to keep the water out. A direct hit could wind up submerging the city in several feet of water.

Making matters worse, at least 100,000 people in the city lack the transportation to get out of town. Nagin said the Superdome might be used as a shelter of last resort for people who have no cars, with city bus pick-up points around New Orleans.

"I know they're saying `Get out of town,' but I don't have any way to get out," said Hattie Johns, 74. "If you don't have no money, you can't go."

Owners of gas stations in and around New Orleans were forced to direct traffic as lines to the pumps stretched down surrounding streets. Gas stations were running low on gas by midafternoon Saturday

"I was in line at the bank for an hour and have been waiting for gas for 30 minutes," said John Sullivan. "If it's anything like they say its going to be, we don't want to be anywhere close to the city."

Louisiana and Mississippi made all lanes northbound on interstate highways. Mississippi declared a state of emergency and Alabama offered assistance to its neighbors. Some motels as far inland as Jackson, Miss., 150 miles north of New Orleans, were already booked up.

By 2 a.m. EDT Sunday, the eye of the hurricane was about 310 miles south-southeast of the mouth of the Mississippi River. It was moving west-northwest at about 8 mph and was expected to turn more to the northwest during the day, the National Hurricane Center said.

"We know that we're going to take the brunt of it," Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco said. "It does not bode well for southeastern Louisiana."

Some tourists heeded the warnings and moved up their departures, and lines of tourists waited for cabs on New Orleans' famed Bourbon Street.

"The problem is getting a taxi to the airport. There aren't any," said Brian Katz, a salesman from New York.

But plenty of people in the French Quarter stayed put, and bars were rocking Saturday night.

"The only dangerous hurricanes so far are the ones we've been drinking," said Fred Wilson of San Francisco, as he sipped on the famous drink at Pat O'Brien's Bar. "We can't get out, so we might as well have fun."

New Orleans' worst hurricane disaster happened 40 years ago, when Hurricane Betsy blasted the Gulf Coast. Flood waters approached 20 feet in some areas, fishing villages were flattened, and the storm surge left almost half of New Orleans under water and 60,000 residents homeless. Seventy-four people died in Louisiana, Mississippi and Florida.

Katrina was a Category 1 storm with 80 mph wind when it hit South Florida on Thursday, and rainfall was estimated at up to 20 inches. Risk modeling companies have said early estimates of insured damage range from $600 million to $2 billion.

Nine people were killed in Florida as a result of Katrina, including two people discovered Saturday in their home after suffering apparent carbon monoxide poisoning from a generator.

South Florida utility crews were still working Saturday to restore power to about 700,000 customers, down from more than 1 million. Residents waited in lines that stretched for miles to reach state-operated centers distributing free water and ice for those without electricity.

Florida has been hit by six hurricanes since last August.

Katrina is the 11th named storm of the Atlantic hurricane season, which began June 1. That's seven more than typically have formed by now in the Atlantic, Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico, the hurricane center said. The season ends Nov. 30.

from an article published 8/28/05
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050828/ap_on_re_us/tropical_weather

eta: it's not fema. fema warned them this would happened and they ignored it.

i didn't lose my mind, i sold it on ebay. .:need a container to fit 5'4", 110 lb. cypres ready & able to fit a 170 main (or slightly smaller):.[/ce

[billvon 2,467]

>Seems to me we have a deliberate campaign started by the right wing
> blogs to deflect criticism from those who should be held to the highest
>standards of performance . . .

Yes, and the left wing has responded in kind, blaming everyone and everything. I deleted one thread titled "FUCK BUSH" that tried to place the blame on him (and predictably descended into personal attacks immediately.) I'm thinking both sides should cool it.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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we should still rescue them first, then call them hypocrites later.

We are rescuing them. They are bashing FEMA now on the news. They are acting like hypocrits now. Calling them hypocrits now doesn't slow down the rescue process.

Here's a different analogy:

You and your buddys go skiing in the back country knowing that a big snowstorm is coming. You and your buddys don't think the storm will be as bad as the news is predicting. You get lost and are stuck. Rescue personnel take a while to get to you because they didn't get all their gear ready to go in preperation for the big snowstorm because they didn't think it was going to be that bad and they wouldn't have to go rescue people. Would you bitch to the rescue personnel when they get to you that they should have realized how bad the storm was going to be and been more prepared? I hope not. If I did that, I would be thankful for whatever assistance I got.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I'm thinking both sides should cool it.

Exactly. The people being rescued should say, "Thank you." Not, "What fucking took you so long?"

FEMA should learn from this too though. Everyone should. I am not playing the blame game, the opposite actually.

Derek

[billvon 2,467]

>Would you bitch to the rescue personnel when they get to you that they
>should have realized how bad the storm was going to be and been more
>prepared? I hope not. If I id that, I wouldn't be thankful for whatever
>assistance I got.

I think if it took them a week to get there and your friends had already died, you might bitch - and I also think everyone would give you some slack because of what you had been through.

[TrophyHusband 0]

is there a plan for bringing these evacuated people back to NO when the projects get rebuilt? i suspect that ray nagin does not intend to bring them back. however i think that baton rouge, houston, and all the other cities that took in people will do all they can to get rid of them when the time comes. crime rates have skyrocketed in these cities. when i talked to melstarr in baton rouge, she said that murders and car jacking were through the roof and they even had to close a walmart because it got overrann and looted by evacuees. if i lived in NO, i wouldn't want them back.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[bodypilot90 0]

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while i agree, this article may shed some light why so many stayed behind. most of the people hit were 9th ward with no way out. with that being said, blame nagin --the guy with no plan. i'm sure school busses could have taken care of this. it's kind of surreal reading this now...

I know in florida 36 hours out all school busses are fueled. Our in ground tanks are filled. We, the school board bus mechanics top off all emergency generators at the schools. Everyone has a job and it goes real smoothly. We have a plan

24 hours out we start pulling old people off the beach with our wheel chair busses. If needed the plans call for ground and air evac.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I think if it took them a week to get there and your friends had already died, you might bitch - and I also think everyone would give you some slack because of what you had been through.

If I was one of the volunteer rescue workers in NO right now and someone that could have left and chose not to started giving me attitude from not rescuing them right away, I'd leave'em. They forfeited their right to criticize rescue personnel when they chose not to leave. When they decided to stay, even though they could have left, they accepted responsibility for whatever happens.

When people climb Mt. Everest, they are forfeiting any expectations of rescue and accepting that if there is a problem, they will have to handle it or they will die. Climbers climbing Mt. Everest accept that responsibility.

If you could have left NO and chose not to, you have no right to criticize/blame FEMA. You took responsibility for what would happen to you when you made that choice. If you did not realize that when you made that choice, too bad. I cannot save you from yourself.

This, again, is limited to those that could have left, didn’t, and are now complaining about the rescue efforts.

Derek

[billvon 2,467]

>If I was one of the volunteer rescue workers in NO right now and
>someone that could have left and chose not to started giving me
>attitude from not rescuing them right away, I'd leave'em.

Derek, I know you, and you would have chalked it up to their state of mind and rescued them anyway. Heck, had it been you, you might have stayed. Recently I heard an interview with a guy who was getting ready to leave, but stopped by a retirement home to see if it had been evacuated. When he got there he was amazed by how few people had been moved; most of the staff had already evacuated. He helped get people ready to go. Before they got all the people out the storm hit and he was stuck there for four days, taking care of some very frail people. When the helicopters came he was very angry, because some had died. I know, he should have heeded the warnings and evacuated, but I would hardly call him names for trying to help.

>When people climb Mt. Everest, they are forfeiting any expectations of
> rescue and accepting that if there is a problem, they will have to handle
>it or they will die. Climbers climbing Mt. Everest accept that responsibility.

A bit different, no? People choose to climb Everest. These people did not choose to experience a hurricane.

> If you did not realize that when you made that choice, too bad. I cannot
> save you from yourself.

You could say the same thing (and be as justified, if not even more justified) about drunk drivers. Yet we still cut them out of wrecks they cause - then assign blame later.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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A bit different, no? People choose to climb Everest. These people did not choose to experience a hurricane.

That's just it, it is the same. They did choose to experience a hurricane. They chose to ride it out. When they made that choice they gave up the priviladge to complain about any rescue efforts.

The guy that stayed behind to help can complain if he chosses. I'm talking about those that stayed just because they wanted to. Not to help others, but because they didn't think it would be that bad.

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Heck, had it been you, you might have stayed.

Nope. I was in Savannah, GA in 1999 when a hurricane came through. I left.

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Derek, I know you, and you would have chalked it up to their state of mind and rescued them anyway.

Maybe, but I would be pissed, which wouldn't help future efforts.

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You could say the same thing (and be as justified, if not even more justified) about drunk drivers. Yet we still cut them out of wrecks they cause - then assign blame later.

I'm not assigning blame, I'm suggesting that those that stayed but could have left and are complaining about relief efforts should shut up and stop being hypocrits. I still think they should be rescued and given all the help we can give them. But when they get hoisted into the helicopter or picked up by a boat, they should say "Thank you".

Mistakes were made. Figure that out later. That includes the recuees. You say assign blame later, but some of the rescuees are assigning it now. I agree that they should stop and that is all I am saying.

Derek

[billvon 2,467]

>Nope. I was in Savannah, GA in 1999 when a hurricane came through. I left.

I would, too, unless I had a reason to be there (like a kid who couldn't be moved, or because I ran an apartment building and had to get people out.)

>They did choose to experience a hurricane.

If you are saying "the people who stuck around just because they wanted to see a hurricane, even though they knew how bad it could be, shouldn't complain when they are rescued" then I agree. But as mentioned above that's not the only reason people stayed.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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If you are saying "the people who stuck around just because they wanted to see a hurricane, even though they knew how bad it could be, shouldn't complain when they are rescued" then I agree.

Yep, that is all I am saying. Except, include the people who stuck around because they didn't believe it was going to be as bad as it was, shouldn't complain when they are rescued. That is all I have said.

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But as mentioned above that's not the only reason people stayed.

Yep, I said that in my first post. Some couldn't leave for various reasons. Some stayed to help, etc. I'm not talking about them.

From my first post: "If you didn't leave because you didn't think it was going to be that bad, you made the same mistake FEMA did and it would be hypocritical to criticize FEMA now."

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

“From the behavior I see on TV, it's already full of dirt.”

“Do you mean the ones you referred to as dirt?”

No, the filth from the flood and overflowing sewers is the dirt.”

“What do you think of people who rape refugees and shoot at rescue workers?”

You called some of the people ‘dirt’. Then when called on it, you denied it and said you were referring to the mess caused by the flooding. When called on that, you justify calling those people ‘dirt’ without admitting you did call them 'dirt' and then denied it.

“Don't assume that everyone who stayed behind, or even most of them, did so voluntarily.”

You tried to say that I assumed something I never said.

You should be a politician the way you spin everything.

Derek