House OKs flag desecration amendment... PASS IT!

[lisamariewillbe 1]

I agree and disagree, go figure, freedom of speech should not interferre with the safety of others. Burning anything in public does just that. Speech is the use of words to communicate with a person or group of people.

Besides on a disrespect level there is safety, there are other aspects to this.

When the G-8 summit was here in Georgia a few years back a woman was arrested for having 30 gallons give or take of her own urine in her car, it appears she was planning to protest at the G-8 she tried to say it was free speech , however there were saftey issues, a person can not use the defense of free speech when it puts others at a risk of physical harm, at least thats my opinion.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[jenfly00 0]

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How does setting ANYTHING on fire constitute as speech? Or peaceful assemble. Explain that to me please.

I think it's covered under the American with Disabilities Act.


Would you have Billy Vance arrested (or beaten?) for using sign language protesting the actions of our government?

Seriously did you read any of this? http://www.law.duke.edu/...vocacy/decision.html


It's a lot of big words, so perhaps this will help: http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/379/

Question Presented
Is the desecration of an American flag, by burning or otherwise, a form of speech that is protected under the First Amendment?


Conclusion
In a 5-to-4 decision, the Court held that Johnson's burning of a flag was protected expression under the First Amendment. The Court found that Johnson's actions fell into the category of expressive conduct and had a distinctively political nature. The fact that an audience takes offense to certain ideas or expression, the Court found, does not justify prohibitions of speech. The Court also held that state officials did not have the authority to designate symbols to be used to communicate only limited sets of messages, noting that "f there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the Government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable."

It's the Supreme Court's job to interpret the constitution. They did. It is the law of the land.

If you don't like this, perhaps someplace in South America would make a good home for you. Perhaps even Iraq. They seem to hold the same political beliefs on free speech as you.
jen

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[kallend 1,625]

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explain how you feel this is self-contradicting

Because neither you nor the author have the right not to be offended. The writer apparently doesn't understand the most basic concepts of freedom and free expression.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[justinb138 0]

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I agree and disagree, go figure, freedom of speech should not interferre with the safety of others. Burning anything in public does just that.

There are already laws in place in which to prevent people from injuring others due to burning things in public; screwing with the 1st amendment isn't required.

I suggest you read the article I posted again.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

it is a matter of respect , in my opinion, everything on all here is an opinion, if everyone agreed on what was right and what was wrong then that would be one thing, but do not condemn me for my opinion if you dont want to be condemned for yours.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[billvon 2,400]

>freedom of speech should not interferre with the safety of others.
> Burning anything in public does just that.

I will agree with you there. If someone burns a flag in a gas station, he should be stopped or arrested. If someone burns it over a firepit in a park or in a hibachi, no problem.

>Speech is the use of words to communicate with a person or group
>of people.

Free speech also covers allowing us to wear what clothing we choose, to have friends we choose to have, and to freely associate with groups and organizations we choose.

[kallend 1,625]

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it is a matter of respect , in my opinion, everything on all here is an opinion, if everyone agreed on what was right and what was wrong then that would be one thing, but do not condemn me for my opinion if you dont want to be condemned for yours.

Explain to me where the right not to be offended comes from?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

i didnt say that was a right, but when people use something only in the hopes to offend others then it is just useless child like antics. Why not try something productive? What is productive about burning a flag? Exactly what does it do? Besides spit on the graves of all the men and women who have died protecting the flag and what the flag stands for. Its useless. Its disrespectful to our country, unless it is done for the right reasons, just as people dont set a blaze to the imogima (sic) statue, or piss on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall

Yes the flag may ONLY be a symbol to some, or cloth to others but it is part of our short history as a country.

How does burning a flag help this country?

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[jenfly00 0]

Quote

i didnt say that was a right, but when people use something only in the hopes to offend others then it is just useless child like antics. Why not try something productive? What is productive about burning a flag? Exactly what does it do? Besides spit on the graves of all the men and women who have died protecting the flag and what the flag stands for. Its useless. Its disrespectful to our country, unless it is done for the right reasons, just as people dont set a blaze to the imogima (sic) statue, or piss on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall

Yes the flag may ONLY be a symbol to some, or cloth to others but it is part of our short history as a country.

How does burning a flag help this country?

If I am spitting on their grave, surely you are taking a dump with your call to 'drag them into an alley and beat them'. Why would you wish to harm me if, as you say, my actions accomplish nothing?

Surely that is not the act of a rational person who claims to value this country.

jen

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[lisamariewillbe 1]

did I say I would harm you? Or did I express what I think should happen to people who burn flags? here lets see.... I said

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Id say any american who burns an american flag out of disrespect should have the shit beat out of them in an ally but then again Im proud of my country, flag and myself

a bit different then saying i am going to beat you up huh ? . My opinion , get the fuck over it and move on, I did not threaten you I said what I feel should be the punishment for what I consider treason, and ya know what

I hope all child molesters get castrated and walked off a cliff doesnt mean I am saying I will castrate them,


All you want is attention , I am trying not to continue with bringing myself down to your level however as you well know , no one is perfect,

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[jenfly00 0]

Stop the twinkie truck ...I'm getting off.

Have a lovely ride.

jen

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[KATO33 0]

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In Reply To
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As much as I'd like to revoke the citizenship of any American who desecrates the American flag

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I Disagree

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You disagree that he'd "like to revoke" but won't?

I disagree with the notion that someone should have their citezenship revoked for desecrating the flag

Blue Skies Black Death

[kelpdiver 2]

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why didn't they write it in then?

Because respect, honor and common sense existed then. It isn't in abundance now..

These would be the same fellows that burned King George in effigy? Revolting from their mother country, committed acts of terrorism against docked ships?

[tkhayes 126]

are you kidding? We should ban flag burning because of a fire safety hazard?

In that case, since the NFPA writes almost ALL the fire safety code for the country, then maybe the NFPA should handle the issue in their code.

Since the NFPA does NOT make constitutional decisions, I say leave it out of there.

TK

[lisamariewillbe 1]

That is one of the aspects, but not the whole picture, sorry if things are black and white for some, but most of my life is not that way nor are my opinions.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[freethefly 6]

Quote

i didnt say that was a right, but when people use something only in the hopes to offend others then it is just useless child like antics. Why not try something productive? What is productive about burning a flag? Exactly what does it do? Besides spit on the graves of all the men and women who have died protecting the flag and what the flag stands for. Its useless. Its disrespectful to our country, unless it is done for the right reasons, just as people dont set a blaze to the imogima (sic) statue, or piss on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall

Yes the flag may ONLY be a symbol to some, or cloth to others but it is part of our short history as a country.

How does burning a flag help this country?

You should read this and really try and understand it. By your account even the founding fathers are scum in your book.

Why the Senate should reject the flag desecration amendment to the United States Constitution

John S. ("Chip") Keating

09.11.98

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For 207 years, the Bill of Rights to the United States Constitution has stood as a barricade in defense of personal freedoms. Never in those two-plus centuries has this shining monument to the wisdom of our Founding Fathers been revised, much less diluted. In June, the U.S. House of Representatives passed a measure that would inflict grievous harm upon the First Amendment within that Bill of Rights. The U.S. Senate is poised to consider an identical measure, Senate Joint Resolution 40, some time after Labor Day.

This legislation proposes to grant Congress the power to prohibit the "desecration" of the American flag. If it passes the Senate by the required two-thirds majority (the vote is expected to be extremely close) and is later ratified by three-fourths of the states, it would become the Twenty-Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution. For the following reasons, the Senate should reject this misguided and dangerous legislation.

A. The History and Purpose of the Bill of Rights

After establishing the framework for a democratic republic in the first seven articles of the Constitution, its proponents still faced significant opposition in a number of states. They soon realized that American suspicion of government was so strong that ratification of this new charter would require additional protections for the rights of individuals against governmental intrusion. What emerged was James Madison's brilliant Bill of Rights, with the protection of free speech being enshrined in the first of its ten amendments.

The Bill of Rights is purposefully anti-democratic, placing beyond the reach of transient political majorities those rights deemed as absolutely fundamental to the survival and prosperity of a free nation. Our Founding Fathers worried, correctly, that the politically weak and unpopular among us would otherwise fall prey to the passions and prejudices of our elected officials. Abraham Lincoln captured the essence of this idea in his first inaugural address, in which he stated: "If by sheer force of numbers a majority should deprive a minority of any clearly written constitutional right, it might, in a moral point of view, justify a revolution."

Thus, any popular support that this proposed amendment may enjoy -- which results more from a revulsion at the act of flag desecration itself than from a dispassionate analysis of the measure's merits -- should not serve as the basis for any Senator's vote in its favor. What is required of our Senators as they weigh the profound step of rewriting the Bill of Rights is to muster the wisdom and courage evidenced by their forebears and to put little stock in the latest polling data.

B. The Bill of Rights Was Conceived to Place Constraints Upon the Power of Government Over Individuals, a Principle that the Proposed Amendment Would Invert

The entire Bill of Rights is about limiting the power of government and securing our individual freedoms. The proposed amendment turns that principle on its head and would place constraints upon the political expression of the people. The only amendment to our constitution which has ever sought to deprive individual liberties is the Eighteenth, which imposed Prohibition. This measure was, of course, repealed only 14 years later by the Twenty-First Amendment.

Freedom of speech, including symbolic speech, is one of the inalienable rights that our Declaration of Independence proclaimed significant enough to go to war. This freedom does not emanate from Congress. It is our birthright as U.S. citizens. Elected officials seldom like dramatic expressions of political dissent. Inherent in such dissent is criticism of those in power. Under Article I, Section 6 of the Constitution, members of Congress have absolute freedom to say whatever they like on the floor of either House -- with no legal consequences, even for libeling an ordinary citizen. Yet, certain of these same elected officials would like to limit the people's First Amendment rights and put beyond the reach of reason or the courts the question of whether those in power can prohibit and punish the political speech of those not in power.

C. The Purpose of the First Amendment is to Protect Speech That is Unpopular

The First Amendment was specifically designed to protect the expression of unorthodox views, unpopular ideas, and political dissent. Would it make any sense if it protected only orthodox views, popular ideas, and political harmony? Since when have these ever been in danger? Safe speech needs no guarantees of freedom, no Constitutional protection. The simple yet noble concept of "freedom of speech" -- which has drawn so many asylum seekers and other immigrants to our shores over the centuries -- would be rendered meaningless if it were limited to the expression of only those views deemed sufficiently agreeable or polite. As the Supreme Court stated in the 1943 case of West Virginia vs. Barnette, "No official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion or other matters of opinion ..."

Our Founding Fathers were confident that the new nation they were forging would be vigorous enough to tolerate diversity and protect the rights of those expressing unpopular opinions. Indeed, that tolerance has served America well. As the United States Supreme Court noted in its opinion on the 1989 flag burning case of Texas vs. Johnson: "Our toleration of criticism such as Johnson's is a sign and source of our strength. Indeed, one of the proudest images of our flag, the one immortalized in our national anthem, is of the bombardment it survived at Fort McHenry. It is the nation's resilience, not its rigidity, that Texas sees reflected in the flag -- and it is that resilience that we reassert today."

Vietnam Veteran Len Denney put it another way in a recent editorial: "If I must continue to tolerate, even protect the rights of people and beliefs that are repellent to my very soul, then so be it. It is a cheap price to pay for my freedom."

D. Peaceful Protest Involving Desecration of the Flag Is a Form of Political Expression

There are some who say that flag desecration is merely an act, not a form of speech, and therefore deserves no protection under the First Amendment. The Supreme Court held otherwise in Texas vs. Johnson, a ruling entirely consistent both with American history and common sense. Just as the flag is a symbol, so too is burning it a symbolic, albeit repugnant, form of expression. This, indeed, is the only possible purpose for such an act (save for Title 36, Section 176(k) of the U.S. Code, but more on that later).

Our forefathers were not unfamiliar with this concept. During the Revolutionary War, George Washington himself defaced a British flag by ordering 13 red and white stripes sewn on it. That desecrated flag was called "The Thirteen Rebellious Stripes." Similar actions were taken by both sides in the Civil War.

Other "mere acts" throughout our history have served as powerful, if distasteful, expressions of dissent. Vietnam War protesters burned not only flags but draft cards, and thereby helped foment debate on the wisdom of U.S. policy in Southeast Asia. Although they never uttered a word, the colonists who dumped British tea into Boston Harbor sent a message heard around the world.

E. The Substance Behind the Symbol Should Not Be Sacrificed in the Name of the Symbol Itself

For over 200 years, the Constitution, and particularly the Bill of Rights, has governed the relationship between the government and the people, defining the powers of the former and the rights of the latter. It is, in short, an enunciation of the principles of freedom and democracy upon which our forebears founded this great nation. In this respect, it is profoundly unlike the flag which, however honored, is merely a symbol of those principles. The power of the flag is in its meaning, not its stitchery.

The many brave American soldiers who have died in combat did so defending the values represented by the flag, not the flag itself. One of the most important of these values is expressed in the First Amendment, which guarantees freedom of speech for all. As stated recently by Army veteran Keith A. Kreul, Past National Commander of the American Legion: "American veterans who have protected our banner in battle have not done so to protect a 'golden calf.' Instead, they carried the banner forward with reverence for what it represents ... Therein lies the beauty of our flag."

F. As the Cornerstone of the United States Constitution, the Bill of Rights Should Be Amended Under Only the Most Compelling of Circumstances

The United States Constitution is the "sacred text" of a nation forged upon the rule of law. Its ratification would not have been possible without the Bill of Rights, which has served since then as the single greatest instrument within the Constitution for securing the blessings of liberty enjoyed by generations of Americans. The Constitution is, quite simply, the most important document in our nation, and the Bill of Rights -- emulated around the world, but whose freedoms are guarded no more jealously than where it arose -- is its cornerstone. As such, those who would propose to tinker with it must be held to an exacting burden of proof, a proof that clearly demonstrates a compelling threat or need going to the fundamental structure of our national government. Of the 11,000 amendments proposed to our Constitution over two centuries, only 27 have been ratified -- and none of these sought to narrow or limit a freedom guaranteed by the Bill of Rights.

The proposed amendment is, in stark contrast to this burden of proof, a solution in search of a problem if ever there was one. In the 221 years since the American flag was adopted, there have been fewer than 85 reported incidents of flag burning. The greatest concentration of these occurred during a five-year period, in the course of protests against the Vietnam War. Trifling with the Constitution and its Bill of Rights in response to a handful of flag burnings by a few misguided dolts would be overkill in the extreme. America is greater than that.

G. The Proposed Amendment Will Invite Flag Desecration, Not Eliminate It

The primary purpose behind a protester's burning of the flag is to draw attention to his or her cause, however misguided. To make flag desecration a special exception to the First Amendment will only make it a more attractive form of protest. Instead of going to jail as a vandal, trespasser or riot inciter, a flag burner would be a political prisoner and a martyr to his or her cause. Whatever publicity one could gain by burning a flag would be magnified a hundredfold were this proposed amendment to become a part of the Constitution. Such a lure would be sure to subject veterans and other good citizens to the sorry spectacle of more flag burnings, not fewer.

H. The Proposed Amendment is a Form of "Compulsory Patriotism" Unworthy of a Nation that is Strong, Free, Prosperous and at Peace

During an interrogation by one of his captors, Ivan Warner was shown a photograph of some Americans protesting the war by burning a flag. "People in your country protest against your cause. That proves you are wrong," said the North Vietnamese officer. "No," replied Warner, a Silver Star Medal and Purple Heart recipient. "That proves that I am right. In America, we are not afraid of freedom, even when we disagree." His answer enraged the North Vietnamese officer, giving Warner tremendous satisfaction at having turned the picture of the burning flag against his captor. "What better way to [respond]," Warner later observed about those who would burn the flag today, "Than with the subversive idea of freedom?"

This past June, the Beijing-controlled legislature in Hong Kong outlawed the defacement of the Chinese flag. Other totalitarian regimes throughout history have sought solace by guarding their flags. Is this really the company we wish to keep? Black lists, loyalty oaths and other paranoid infringements of its citizens' civil liberties have been relegated to the dustbin of American history. We should not compromise our time-honored tradition of no-holds-barred political discourse to "save" a flag which has demonstrated its endurance through numerous wars, domestic unrest and other periods of great national stress. A truly free country has nothing to fear from free speech, even protest involving the desecration of the symbol of that freedom.

I. Narrowing the Scope of a Fundamental Liberty is a Step Down a Slippery Slope

Virtually all of the Founding Fathers faced prison (or worse) because the government of the time found their speech to be offensive. They knew from first-hand experience how essential to a free society was the protection of even the most abhorrent and controversial of political expression. As Thomas Paine observed: "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression, for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." If one small voice can be silenced by amending the Constitution, it could happen to any or all of us. Do we really want to place in the hands of government the question of what constitutes "good" speech and what constitutes "bad" speech?

And if Congress is willing to tamper with the First Amendment today, what's to stop it from slicing and dicing the other nine parts of the Bill of Rights tomorrow? One footnote invites another. After the First Amendment comes the Second.

J. Respect for the Flag is Diminished, Not Enhanced, When the State Attempts to Coerce It

"Old Glory" is the paramount symbol of the freedoms that Americans have treasured, and, in a great many cases, died for over more than two centuries. The profound esteem in which it already is held by the overwhelming majority of our 270 million citizens is far too great to be enhanced by criminalizing any gestures against it. What a terrible irony it would be, then, if for the first time in our history a portion of the Bill of Rights is carved away under the guise of "saving" the flag. As the Supreme Court stated in Texas vs. Johnson: "We do not consecrate the flag by punishing its desecration, for in so doing we dilute the freedom that this cherished emblem represents."

The flag desecration amendment would not only eviscerate the First Amendment; it would also send a signal to the world of a nation unconfident of its citizens' allegiance and of its ability to endure criticism and dissent. Any additional measure of respect that might somehow be gained through threat of imprisonment would be neither earned nor deserved. If this measure were to pass, would we really be able to look upon the flag with quite as much pride and reverence as before?

K. Existing Laws Are Sufficient to Deal with Isolated Incidents of Flag Burning

Most acts of flag burning already are punishable under existing larceny, trespassing or public property statutes. The First Amendment allows punishment for acts of desecration performed in such a way as to incite a riot or produce a danger to others. All four persons who desecrated American flags in 1994, for example, were prosecuted under such statutes. More laws are simply not necessary.

L. Defining "Flag" and "Desecration" is Both Difficult and Likely to Result in a Flood of Litigation

Nowhere in the proposed amendment are the terms "flag" and "desecration" defined. The form of any statute Congress might pass were this measure to become a part of the Constitution is, at this point, anybody's guess. The American Heritage Dictionary (Second College Edition) defines "desecrate" as "to abuse the sacredness of." Not even the most ardent veterans groups argue that the flag is a religious icon. What kind or degree of disrespect might rise to the level of "desecration," particularly where the object in question -- the American flag -- is a secular symbol? Since burning is, under Title 36, Section 176(k) of the U.S. Code, the proper method for disposing of a worn flag, how would police and prosecutors determine which burnings are "proper" and which are not? Would any improper means of handling, storing or displaying a flag -- Sections 174 through 176 of Title 36 contain 171 lines regulating these subjects -- constitute imprisonable flag abuse?

As for the flag itself, would this proposed amendment permit incarceration were someone to manufacture paper towels with an American flag motif? Could you play football on a muddy field wearing a Tommy Hilfiger shirt with a flag across the chest? Could you eat an ice cream cake flag? What might happen to someone who disrespects a picture of a flag, or an actual flag with 48 or 52 stars? While criminal defense attorneys may prosper, the proposed amendment would create a nightmare for prosecutors and judges, and could be used for unintended censorship.

M. The Answer to Ignorant or Repugnant Speech is More Speech, Not Less

In its opinion in the Johnson case, the Supreme Court stated: "We can imagine no more appropriate response to burning a flag than by waving one's own... The way to preserve the flag's special role is not to punish those who feel differently about these matters. It is to persuade them that they are wrong." In 1976, a crowd at Wrigley Field in Chicago actually burst into a spontaneous rendition of "God Bless America" when two protesters ran onto the field and tried to burn a flag. How utterly, beautifully American a response!

Arresting someone who is demonstrating peacefully, if utterly obnoxiously, only vindicates that person's hatred. Legislation cannot change the hearts and minds of men nearly so effectively as education. As to false or repugnant speech, Supreme Court Justice Louis Frankfurter once wrote: "[T]he remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."

Conclusion

The proposed amendment not only would be ineffective at accomplishing its stated purpose of protecting the flag from desecration; it would itself desecrate the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Americans who believe that desecration of the American flag must be outlawed are allowing an emotional reaction to something they find highly offensive overrule the well-reasoned conclusions of our Founding Fathers. For the Senate to reject this measure, in light of the passions it has aroused, will require something in ample supply at Independence Hall and Omaha Beach but exhibited all too rarely by modern politicians: courage.

Sources/Acknowledgements

This piece was written after a careful review of some 45 newspaper editorials, on-line editorials, on-line essays and on-line radio commentaries. (By way of background, the American Society of Newspaper Editors has taken a formal position opposing the flag desecration amendment.) I also referred to the United States Constitution, the United States Code, The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, The Quotable Lawyer and The American Heritage Dictionary (Second College Edition). The purpose of this piece was to gather in one essay the strongest arguments in support of its thesis from the vast array of writings and other commentary on this subject. Where a phrase used by another author was particularly forceful or eloquent, I borrowed it verbatim.


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Listed below are the sources for this piece, for verification and/or reference. For your convenience, I have also included the web site addresses where I found them.

At Web site address http://www.asne.org/ideas/flagedit.htm:


Arizona Republic, Phoenix, Arizona (undated editorial)
Los Angeles Daily News, Los Angeles, California (undated editorial)
The Sacramento Bee, Sacramento, California (undated editorial)
Denver Post, Denver, Colorado (undated editorial)
The News-Times, Danbury, Connecticut (undated editorial)
Northwest Florida Daily News, Fort Walton Beach, Florida (undated editorial)
Florida Today, Melbourne, Florida (undated column by Al Neuharth)

At Web site address http://www.aclu.org/forms/nytimesad060298-more.html:

The Detroit News, Detroit Michigan (editorial dated 4/11/98)
USA Today ("USA Weekend"), Arlington, Virginia (column by M. Franco Salvoza dated 6/8/97)
Libertarian Party News, city/state unknown (column by Sandi Webb dated September 1995)
Libertarian Party News, city/state unknown (column by David F. Nolan dated September 1995)
The Chronicle, Durham, North Carolina (column by Ty Harris dated 10/27/95)
Rome Sentinel, Rome, NY (editorial dated 2/5/97)
Boston Globe, Boston, Massachusetts (editorial dated 6/26/98)
Weekly Alibi, city/state unknown (column by David O. Dabney dated 7/2/97)
Casper Star-Tribune, Casper, Wyoming (column by Charles Levendosky dated 5/4/97)
Des Moines Sunday Register, Des Moines, Iowa (editorial dated 6/14/98)
The Herald, Everett, Washington (editorial dated 7/20/98)
Peoria Journal Star, Peoria, Illinois (editorial dated 6/6/98)
Freedom Forum Online, city/state unknown (column by Phillip Taylor dated 5/7/98)
Freedom Forum Online, city/state unknown (column by Phillip Taylor dated 7/21/98
Washington Post, Washington, D.C. (editorial dated 7/5/98)
Minot Daily News, Minot, North Dakota (editorial dated 7/5/98)
The Dickinson Press, Dickinson, North Dakota (editorial dated 7/11/98)
The Fargo Forum, Fargo, North Dakota (editorial dated 7/8/98)
San Francisco Examiner, San Francisco, California (editorial dated 7/19/98)
ACLU Freedom Network, New York, New York (a collection of 14 essays entitled "Voices of Veterans")
The Register Herald, Beckley, West Virginia (column by R. Shawn Lewis dated 5/15/98)
Freedom Forum Online, city/state unknown (column by Paul McMasters dated 4/1/98)

At Web site address http://www.esquilax.com/flag/article4.html:

Mesa Tribune, Mesa Arizona (column by Warren S. Apel dated 6/30/95)

At Web site address http://www.aclu.org/congress/1033097a.html:

ACLU Freedom Network, New York, New York (column by Jamin Raskin dated 3/30/97)

At Web site address http://www.freedomforum.org/speech/series/flag.amendment.latest.asp:

National Public Radio, city/state unknown (radio commentary by Wendy Kaminer aired on NPR's "Morning Edition" on 6/9/98)

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[lisamariewillbe 1]

I do understand the arguement, but my personal belief is that the flag should be treated with respect. No one has yet to explain how the burning of a flag is a productive form of protest.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[tkhayes 126]

beauty is in the eye of the beholder, protest is not necessarily.

No one needs to explain to you the 'productivity' or the meaning of their protest - that is the basis of free speech. They have the right to protest however they see fit.

burning the flag is an expression of anger or disappointment with the government/country and perfectly viable (in my opinion.)

If they tore the flag down and burned it, then you would also have the right to go get another flag and put it back up. I think millions of Americans did just that after 9/11.

TK

[lisamariewillbe 1]

nope, you are right, no one has to explain themselves. However that being said, when people make a joke and mock someones beliefs regardless of what they are and then refuse to state the reasons, yet expect you to defend the reasons you dont believe in what they do then yes they should explain. Its called a discussion, to continue a discussion both sides need to contribute. Freethefly had a very productive post which gave me things to think about. Did it change how I feel ? No but at least it was productive.

I understand why people burn the flag, there pissed, but what results do they get besides offending others? Does our govt change? Do they get results from the people who matter? Nope. What they get is a bunch of people , normal citizens who are outraged that the symbol of our country is being dis-respected.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[freethefly 6]

Lisa, if you still do not understand then I strongly recommend that you re-read Mr. Keatings essay again and take the time to reflect on what he is saying. It is the meaning behind the flag that needs protection. Not the flag itself.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[lisamariewillbe 1]

If someone is disrespecting the actual flag then they in turn are disrespecting the meaning behind the flag. That is only my opinion, but it is something I truely feel in my heart. I feel about this as I feel about alot of things, ie people dont need expensive funerals, yet families provide a huge service costing thousands of dollars because of the memory of the person, it would not be disrespectful to just cremate and silentley bury someone yet out of respect of a memory most people provide a memorial and funeral for there loved ones. If someone was protesting the people who provide said service by setting caskets on fire while a funeral is going on it is disrespectful.

However, the media makes flag burning out to be this huge problem that is going on everywhere in our country, to be honest there are not that many flag burnings, at least not ones that make the news, however when I see someone burning the flag the improper way it pains me, and makes me sad. I love the history of my country, I cry when I think about all the people who have to die just to protect my freedom, I cry harder when others who have never fought for anything more less this country sit there and desecrate what I feel is the greatest symbol of my country.

To me there is nothing better then driving down the hwy , bored, tired, and annoyed at traffic, to turn around a bend and see high above this earth , the most beautiful flag with bold bright colors reminding me, reminding me what I have and what I am thankful for. As I watch the flag I am reminded of my granddaddys war stories, I am reminded of the pain he went through during and after, I am reminded that I gave birth to amazing children, I am reminded that alot of blood was lost just to keep that flag in the sky. I am reminded of my families name in a book on ellis island, I am reminded that if it werent for this country my blood line woud have died in a cold dark concentration camp, I am reminded of my uncle, whose name is etched in a wall, I am reminded of all that I am thankful for.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[tkhayes 126]

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nope, you are right, no one has to explain themselves. However that being said, when people make a joke and mock someones beliefs regardless of what they are and then refuse to state the reasons, yet expect you to defend the reasons you dont believe in what they do then yes they should explain. Its called a discussion, to continue a discussion both sides need to contribute. Freethefly had a very productive post which gave me things to think about. Did it change how I feel ? No but at least it was productive.

I only partially agree. No one is obligated to enter into said 'discussion' - you can choose to ignore it. The guy standing on the corner with the "end of the world" sign ranting and raving is a good example.

I do not need to know his reasons, I have no need for them, nor interest his reasons, even though I firmly believe that the 'end of the world' is not near and I can completely ignore him.

Now even if he burns his sign, creates a 'fire hazard' for me, yells and gets in my face - I can still simply ignore him and choose NOT to participate.

The 'discussion' that you may enter into may end up being completely meaningless to both sides anyway, but that is not the sole reason not to do it. You have that choice, just as they do.

i.e. never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

and offending others IS a valid form of protest. A black lady did it years ago by sitting on the wrong seat on the bus. It offended plenty of people. I expect some people ended up getting killed over the issue. And it changed the world. perfectly valid to offend someone - it wakes them up.

TK

[tkhayes 126]

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However, the media makes flag burning out to be this huge problem that is going on everywhere in our country, to be honest there are not that many flag burnings, at least not ones that make the news, ...

So my question would be then - why are we paying politicians huge salaries and wasting our tax dollars on the issue? Like we have nothing better to do on Capitol Hill?

please......

TK

[lisamariewillbe 1]

I totually agree with the above post, but I was more talking about in regards to this discussion on this thread, I choose to not ignore it but educate my personal feelings, just as others choose to insult those beliefs, if someone wants to try to convince me of their views there are productive ways, or else I will just continue my rants.


When Rosa Parks sat in her seat on the bus yes she may have offended people, however her protest and her way of protesting was one that was productive. Flags have been burned many a times, and with what results? I would think that that once people realized it didnt work they would try some other avenues,

There are plenty of protests that have worked out fine, but then there are the ones like chaining yourself to a tree or laying down in front of a building or burning a flag that just have not worked. Take those same protests and change the way it is viewed and be productive and see results, for buildings, find a reason it should stay, ie history, community etc, for trees specfic animal population etc, for govt , research, letters, action. BURNING a flag out of rage is not productive in my opinion and more so the fact that it is extremely disrespectful to all those who died to keep it flying.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[lisamariewillbe 1]

I agree, dammit stop getting me to agree.

The reason this is such a big deal when it does arise is because it is based on emotions. One side says it disrespects the founding fathers and the men and women who died to keep the meaning of that flag alive, then theres the emotions of those who feel that the govt is infringing on rights, when you tell someone they cant do something , they want to do it. This topic gets the attention purely because it is emotion based, no matter what side you are on.

I agree there are many things that need to be worked on that are a higher priorty, but it does not take from the fact that I hope this amendment is passed.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this