released reserve pod

[hossein 0]

i was at zhills on saturday and exited an otter on a 3-way train. i was rear float (so front of the train facing the tail)
waved off to go into 3 way camp fire when the guy behind me managed to dislodge my reserve pad with his left foot!
i immediately grabbed it and tried to put it back into velcro pocket but........
cold start to the day so i was wearing gloves and on my atom container and same on new icons by the way the reserve pouch has two sided velcro so when reserve pad comes out the pouch shuts tight
holding onto pad with my left hand i tried to open the pouch with my right hand but was impossible with gloves so i took my right glove off with my teeth and prized open the pouch with my index finger and manged to shove only half the reserve pad into the pouch as it kept shutting when i moved my finger down.
i was flying on my back probably doing big circles and the whole event took about 6000 ft !
at 3000 ft i held onto my reserve pad and pulled pc out at about 2500 since i didnt know where i was on jump run and kept good arch with both hands on my chest to give best symmetry for deployment
stilleto deployed with no problems and i landed without trying any hard turns
reserve pin had been pulled to about 5mm from end so was very close to popping.
interested to know peoples opinion on what they would have done in this situation and also any thoughts on why these rigs have double sided velcro where the reserve pad sits since i am going to cut one layer off after this experience.

[ChrisL 2]

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interested to know peoples opinion on what they would have done in this situation and also any thoughts on why these rigs have double sided velcro where the reserve pad sits since i am going to cut one layer off after this experience.

If it came out with 2 sided velcro, imagine how easily itr could be dislodged with velcro on only one side.

If it had been me, and I could see that some of the cable had been extracted along with the handle, I'd have pulled my reserve.
I'd be afraid it might deploy on its own at a very bad time.

__

My mighty steed

[hossein 0]

the reserve pod has only one side of velcro which seals with one side of the velcro in the pouch
but for some reason there is another side of velcro in the pouch too which seals the pouch shut if the reserve pod is not present

[jerry81 10]

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but for some reason there is another side of velcro in the pouch too which seals the pouch shut if the reserve pod is not present

So the pouch can take a regular hard handle as well, perhaps?

[icevideot 0]

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So the pouch can take a regular hard handle as well, perhaps?

That is obvious. At least after you said it

Why not take a matching piece of velcro and cover the part you don't use instead of cutting it off? Then if you or a future owner want to go to a d-ring handle you can.

I keep considering a hard handle myself but haven't changed as of yet.

As far as what I would do, it is hard to say in the heat of the moment. I think pulling the reserve is by far the safest bet since you can't know how far the pin has moved. Just my opinion though. I am glad your choice worked out for you. I would have considered that as an option as well.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[hossein 0]

thats exactly it !!!
why didnt i think off that :-)
you are right; when they make the rig they make it so that you can use a normal metal d-ring reserve handle but when you request a reserve pad as an option they have already stiched the webbing with two sides of velcro for the metal handle and do not take the extra velcro off.
i think this is a safety issue which needs to be addressed since with the metal ring i guess you can prize open the sealed velcro pouch by forcing the metal ring into it but this method wont work with the pad tab.

[hossein 0]

very good idea
i will cover the unnecessary velcro with matching velcro as oppose to cut it out
a bit of thinking outside the box :-)
tkvm for ur comment

[Amelia 0]

I’ve been unfortunate enough to have had a similar experience! Mine started off as the extra bit of velcro being the whole problem though… When being checked out a guy said my pad wasn’t properly stowed – he then ‘sorted it’ for me and when I did a (now I know to be insufficient!) check by feeling there was tension again (ie velcro holding it securely) we were off in the plane. First part of the jump (ff) was fine, then at one point I ended up bringing my knees up which was enough to dislodge the pad. The guys I was jumping with then signalled to me (thanks again Dan!) – I looked down and saw the pad flapping about, so I grabbed it, flipped onto my belly and deployed my main whilst holding the reserve pad. I didn’t think about it- it was my instant reaction to just hold it and dump my main asap. With hindsight for reasons already said I should’ve just pulled it the rest of the way but it was done before I thought about that – the thought came into my head as my main was deploying then I had to do the same – stow it carefully then bimble back to the ground with not much movement just incase… fortunately the pin hadn’t moved at all.

It’s all very well people saying they would pull the reserve and for some people that would be true for sure, but like one guy has said you never know until it happens! In the heat of the moment you sometimes don’t have the same methodical thinking –personally I gave it next to none – I didn’t have time, it was towards the end of the jump so time to get a canopy - I couldn’t try the superman skills Hossein pulled off over 6k! ;-)

When looking at my kit we could see what had happened; when the guy tried to help by re-stowing my pad, he did not put it back properly between the velcro (I jump a Mirage G3 which has an edge with velcro, bit in the middle with the other part of the velcro, then the other edge where nothing should be inbetween – not sure why its there! –bad explanation but hopefully you know what I mean?!). The velcro was together and my pad stowed in the random extra bit, but as the velcro hadn’t gone back together in line there was enough velcro to hold some resistance with my pad.

Two solutions for me – one I put Velcro straight on to cover the bit that isn’t used, and two…. I don’t let anyone near my pads – if they say it’s not right I’d take my rig off and fix it myself which is what I should’ve done – it’s my own fault I know! Bit worrying though that yours came out by someone’s foot?! Thought that wasn’t supposed to be possible with the pad! Anyone else ever have a pad come out in freefall for a reason other that it not being stowed right in the first place or someone pulling it?!

[catfishhunter 1]

Not sure just how I would handle it for sure but if I had decided to dump the reserve I know I would be getting big and slowing down and NOT dumping until 4K or so as per what Mr. Booth had to say on the matter after someone dumped their reserve immedialty up high and blew up their reserve.

I think though I would have done something along the lines you did but wouldn't have waited tell 3 K to dump. Would have probably dumped the main higher and checked to see how far the cable was out and if it looked like I was in any REAL danger of two out then chopped and pulled the reserve

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[Ms.sofaking 0]

Forgive me I'm new to the sport, but why would dumping your reserve at 4k be better than up high?
Is this just because you said you'd get big and slow down?

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[Andy9o8 0]

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Forgive me I'm new to the sport, but why would dumping your reserve at 4k be better than up high?
Is this just because you said you'd get big and slow down?

Yes. The faster the freefall velocity at the time of deployment, the more strain on the canopy due to opening forces, and the greater the chance the canopy will be damaged (snapped lines, blown cells, etc.) by those forces. (Also the greater the chance of injury to you from a high-speed deployment.)

Generally, you want your terminal velocity to be as slow as possible when you deploy, to avoid damage to your canopy and/or injury to you from an overly- high speed deployment.

Terminal velocity is greater at higher altitude than at lower altitude, due to the change in air density. So, the lower you go before opening, the slower you'll be when you deploy. That means less opening shock forces, both on the canopy and on you. If your main canopy is damaged upon opening, you can cut away and go to reserve. But if you're going straight to reserve, that (obviously) is your one and only chance, so you don't want to do anything to increase the chance of a reserve malfunction.

Incidentally, that's also why freeflyers transition from head-down or a sit (which have high fall-rates) to belly-flat (which has a slower fall-rate), or most jumpers transitions from a track to "neutral" position, before pulling: to slow themselves down first.

[Ms.sofaking 0]

I did not know this (about air density and terminal velocity)But, shouldn't your reserve be capable of handling a terminal deployment at any altitude?

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[billvon 2,400]

>But, shouldn't your reserve be capable of handling a
>terminal deployment at any altitude?

As long as you are loading it within its limits, and using it within normal skydiving altitudes, yes. However:

-many people overload their reserves
-many people take their reserves past terminal (head-downers)
-some people go higher than 15,000 feet
-even during a normal deployment, the lower stress, the less likely you are to see failures

Case in point - a jumper during WT04 exited a Hercules at 25,000 feet (exit speed about 160mph) and had a premature reserve opening. It broke several of his ribs but held together and he landed OK.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

25k???? That would be one damn long canopy ride. You would want to be conservative on your reserve, but you'd also want to burn up the altitude because hypoxia and skydiving are, not so good...

On another note... Picture this same scenario but say he had dumped his reserve without chopping the main. Now, say your reserve had a mal, it could be a baglock, a stuck slider, lineover, whatever.

Would you dump your main? (This part is pretty dumb as I know pretty much anyone would do it if they had no other choice.)

Second part to this question is what type of things might you consider before doing such a thing. I mean would you try to clear the reserve to the last second, dump your main right away, induce a spin then try to get your main out of the way of the reserve(similar to hang gliding where you throw your reserve to the side), would you just throw and hope for the best etc...

This is purely out of curiosity and is probably pretty unlikely to happen, but I prefer having though about the different mals and what I would do in each scenario.

Everyone will react to a mal in a different way or sequence, but we are all accomplishing the same thing. I have had a reserve ride and I fought with it based on I had alot of altitude. I checked my altitude, VERY often and can recall roughly what happened at any altitude during the mal. Some people said they would have done the standard try one, try twice, chop. I tried until my decision altitude, or slightly above.

I guess in all of that I'm asking if you would ever intentionally induce a 2 out situation, if you had dumped your reserve first.

I hope all that makes sense.

Thanks

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[el_chester 4]

I was not at World Twam 04 (only 06), but from what I heard, what happened is a person caught his reserve handle on exit.

I suppose that on such a case, if the reserve had a bad mal, one could hope to do rigging (you have enough time/altitude) and cut all reserve lines with your hook kinfe (provided you have one - which to my understanding is a given when doing such bigways). Then open your main.

But given a landable reserve, I´d just ride it down, as Dieter did.

--
Be careful giving advice. Wise men don't need it, and fools won't heed it.

[Pulse 0]

We also have to remember that your canopy-descent rate is faster also. The differential between terminal speed and canopy descent is still greater. But I'm sure this helps to a certain degree.

I will also recollect Joe Kittinger's jump. His main parachute opened at 17,500 feet as it was planned to.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[Martini 0]

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Forgive me I'm new to the sport, but why would dumping your reserve at 4k be better than up high?
Is this just because you said you'd get big and slow down?

Better chance of finding your reserve freebag/pc down low, no particular advantage of dumping high (outside of dealing with a reserve mal).

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[Ms.sofaking 0]

That might be right for you, but I'm way to new for that right now.I don't know for sure but I'm willing to bet at this point with my experience (or lack there of)
I won't even be thinking about my freebag.I always thought I'd dump at whatever altitude I was at when I knew I needed to.

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[icevideot 0]

I would agree with either decision. Remember, the higher you are the more options you have for landing. And for those who think opening lower will help with finding the freebag remember it falls faster than a person under canopy. With a little altitude you may see where it lands and still have time to land safely yourself. We all live with our own decisions so choose your poison.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[dorbie 0]

It's probably a bad idea to hold onto it during main depoyment since your arm could get pretty heavy under openning shock loading and inadvertenly deploy the reserve. The handle itself especially partly seated shouldn't be enough to pull the pin.