New Pope Elected

[skydyvr 0]

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Hey I don't care for debating religion tonight.

Yea, that was easy to spot.

Hopefully, you don't define stopping by to take a quick crap on someone else's belief system, then going on to proclaim "more jumping, less bitching" in the same breath as "debate", right?

. . =(_8^(1)

[sinker 0]

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Hey I don't care for debating religion tonight.

Yea, that was easy to spot.

Hopefully, you don't define stopping by to take a quick crap on someone else's belief system, then going on to proclaim "more jumping, less bitching" in the same breath as "debate", right?

WOW! That was great!

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[kallend 1,683]

You are entitled to believe anything you like. I have no issue with your faith, although I find it hard to see how you believe stuff for which there is zero actual evidence (which is why it's called "faith").

Just don't keep claiming that your church and yours alone is the possessor of absolute truth. That is arrogant nonsense.

You whine about anti-RC bias, yet you (collectively) keep trying to force your version of morality on everyone else. What do you expect? That the rest of us will just sit back and accept your mythology?

Your church lost all claim to moral superiority when it murdered tens of thousands of people in the name of Jesus. The Jesus I learned about promoted peace and love.

And the best apology it can come up in 400 years with is to say it was all the fault of some misguided individuals and accept no responsibility for the church itself.

And to this day it continues to treat women as second class with a totally bogus rationale concerning the gender of Jesus. How many women got to vote for or against Ratzinger?

How can you possibly justify telling a raped teenage girl that she has to conceive and carrying a rapist's child to term rather than taking a "morning after" pill? Is it really God's will that she was raped? That is such cruelty.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sinker 0]

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You are entitled to believe anything you like. I have no issue with your faith, although I find it hard to see how you believe stuff for which there is zero actual evidence (which is why it's called "faith").

there is evidence... you just refuse to see it. and you DO have an issue w/ my faith, you say so yourself. you criticize it and mock it publically. But I've been guilty of mocking your lack of belief. Please forgive me, and let's move on.

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Just don't keep claiming that your church and yours alone is the possessor of absolute truth. That is arrogant nonsense.

That is not entirely correct... the belief of the Catholic Church is that it possesses, as handed down by God, the fullness of truth. That doesn't mean that other Christian churches are w/o truth and the saving power of Jesus. They certainly DO possess truth. That isn't also to say that one cannot be saved w/o being a "Christian." There is such a thing as invincible ignorance. The "Catholic God" is not one who would damn someone to hell if they were never introduced as it were to Jesus Christ. The belief of the Catholic Church is that there are bits of truth in ALL religions, some more so than others. For example, a commonality among Christians, Jews AND Muslims is the belief in ONE God. That is an important TRUTH that unites these three faiths. And that should be celebrated.

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You whine about anti-RC bias, yet you (collectively) keep trying to force your version of morality on everyone else. What do you expect? That the rest of us will just sit back and accept your mythology?

Well, you certainly can disagree, but if the Church were to NOT attempt to promulgate what it believes to be the truth about how human beings SHOULD behave towards themselves, towards each other, towards the Earth, towards God, then it wouldn't be acting in accord w/ it's beliefs. It would be failing at the very mission it believes to have, given from Jesus Himself. Personally, I'd hate to see the hellish existance we'd all be in if the Church HADN'T been trying to obey it's mandate by teaching what it does. I consider it a failure of the Church, me included since I am a member, that we continue to have things like murder, rape, racism, poverty, a lack of respect for life etc. We are obviously not doing the best job we could.

I don't expect you to sit back and accept my 'mythology.' It'd be nice, however, if you suspended some of your rancor and paranoia and tried to really understand where the Church is coming from, b/c you honestly don't.

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Your church lost all claim to moral superiority when it murdered tens of thousands of people in the name of Jesus. The Jesus I learned about promoted peace and love.

Throw the baby out w/ the bathwater... [sarcasm] that's ALWAYS the best policy, isn't it? [sarcasm off] It was incredibly gratifying to read Billvon's post related to this matter. There was a lot of wisdom in in and I invite you to read it if you haven't yet done so. The Church has only lost credibility w/ you. You are the one missing out on the richness it has to offer humanity . The Church agrees and teaches that humans, above all else, have free will. A will to choose their beliefs, their actions, their "destiny" as it were. The fact that Joey the Rat isn't at your door to put you on the rack is testimony to that. Believe what you will. But don't expect the Church to stop doing what it believes it MUST do. B/c it won't. And thank God for that!

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And the best apology it can come up in 400 years with is to say it was all the fault of some misguided individuals and accept no responsibility for the church itself.

I'm still amazed that you refuse to accept the apology of the HEAD OF THE CHURCH, HIMSELF, in the person of Pope John Paul II when he, on behalf of all Catholics, apologized for the autrocities the Church committed in the past. But yet, just b/c Dread Scott was overturned, you think that is as good as an apology. The blind spot here is just incredible. You know, if Jesus Himself asked you to forgive the inquisitors and the Church who supported them, I don't know if you'd actually do it. But you easily, it seems, overlook equally egregious transgressions of those in your country, political party, etc.

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And to this day it continues to treat women as second class with a totally bogus rationale concerning the gender of Jesus. How many women got to vote for or against Ratzinger?

The Catholic Church is not, has not, will never be, a democracy. How many men DIDN'T get to vote for Ratzinger? Every single one who wasn't a cardinal. You better complain, kallend, b/c that includes YOU! The Church isn't just mysogynistic, it's kallendogynistic too! God didn't call you to lead the church, so you have no say in who is elected Pope. Better file a lawsuit or something.

And before you say that the Cardinals voted, ergo the Church is a democracy, that isn't entirely accurate. As w/ the choosing of Apostles in the early Church, the belief is that the Princes of the Church, while praying for enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, are allowing GOD to elect who He wishes to lead the Catholic Church in the person of the Pope, by way of casting their ballots. True, the college of cardinals elected some monsters as Popes. However, evidence of the Jesus' promise to not abandon His Church, when He gave Peter the keys, was that the Church was preserved even during those times of scandalous popes. It sounds insane to you, I know, but that's how it is. It's not hard for people of faith to grasp. Look up G. K. Chesterton's remarks on what he called "the democracy of the dead."

Catholics, as with many other people of faith, believe that there is a personal, benevolent God who desires to lovingly lead His people. And they act on that belief when, in prayer, they ask for God's guidance when they make decisions.

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How can you possibly justify telling a raped teenage girl that she has to conceive and carrying a rapist's child to term rather than taking a "morning after" pill? Is it really God's will that she was raped? That is such cruelty.

Isn't that a horse we've beaten to death. But, as expected, there is an error in your statement... the Catholic view of morality DOES NOT FORCE a rape victim "to conceive." In fact, it does the opposite... it promotes attempts at PREVENTING conception in the case of rape, b/c that is NOT how children should be brought in the world. BUT if conception has occurred, while traumatic and surely most difficult, it is even worse to kill an unborn child, who was not the assailant. That unborn child is the SECOND victim of the crime, not the perpetrator.

You know, I wonder if you read my posts all the way through. B/c when you respond to them, I get the feeling that you're not "hearing" what I'm saying. I don't mean that you need to accept it as truth, but your responses indicate to me a real lack of understanding. If it's b/c I'm horribly verbose, I apologize. Brevity, unfortunately, is not my gift.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I wonder if you read my posts all the way through

I don't.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[sinker 0]

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I wonder if you read my posts all the way through

I don't.

i didn't ask you, smartass. and given the lack of erudition in your responses, it is blatently obvious that you don't.

have you returned to take another crap on my beliefs?

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[kallend 1,683]

The RC church admits no error of the church. The apology was for the despicable acts of individuals.

By such logic the Mafia is a nice family oriented organization, and it apologizes for the crimes of some of its members. The KKK is a patriotic organization promoting American values, and apologizes for the excesses of some of its members.

Arthur Anderson was a wonderful company. It's just a pity it's accountants made all those mistakes.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TheAnvil 0]

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The KKK is a patriotic organization promoting American values, and apologizes for the excesses of some of its members.

Given that you bash Catholocism & avidly support racial discrimination, I'd be wary of comments concerning the KKK were I you, dear Kallend. Some folks might get the wrong idea about you. Kind of like Ted Kennedy talking about ladies swimming - easy to get the wrong idea. We most assuredly wouldn't want anyone here to think the wrong thing about one of our finest S.C. denizens.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kallend 1,683]

hey Anvil, on another thread we have an opinion from a lawyer that the Dredd Scott decision by the SC helped end slavery.

So, yes, you did INDEED miss.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Nightingale 0]

It's very true that many Catholics don't talk about things that can become issues. I went to a Catholic high school for my freshman year. I left after that year, but still had some friends who kept me up on the gossip. Out of a freshman class of about 70 or so, by the end of senior year, four girls were pregnant. I know the circumstances of two... one claims she didn't use any kind of birth control because "condoms and pills are sins!" um... and premarital sex isn't? the other thought she only had to take her birth control pills on the days she had sex, rather than every day. I wonder if these pregnancies, especially the second one, could have been avoided if the school had a sex-ed program other than "abstinance only." and actually taught the girls how birth control works, or if her mother or father had talked to her about it. The parents or school could have even taken the opportunity to explain why the catholic church doesn't agree with birth control when discussing the various methods and how they work, but that second girl wouldn't have been clueless. Regardless of what you teach kids, some of them are going to have sex before they get married, so it makes sense to address the issues rather than pretending they don't exist.

[sinker 0]

Regardless of what you teach kids, some of them are going to have sex before they get married, so it makes sense to address the issues rather than pretending they don't exist. ***

the church doesn't 'pretend' the issues don't exist. as I said on another thread recently, teaching something is bad/wrong/sinful but then teaching how to do or us such a thing is contradictory.

what the church should do MORE of is to teach people HOW to live chastely according to their state in life, i.e. single, married, etc.

and above all... the church should continue to teach personal accountability for one's actions. if you have sex, even when on birth control, you just may get pregnant. that's the problem w/ BC... it attempts to remove the potential responsibility of becoming a parent... but it sometimes fails... and when it fails, there is always the ultimate in irresponsibility, abortion.

on a totally unrelatd note, you have a nice web site.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Nightingale 0]

the school I was at acted like birth control didn't exist. A lot of the girls in my class had been told "don't have sex til you're married" by their parents, and that was their only info about sex from an adult. It's far more common than it should be. Information helps people make mature choices.

What I meant was that they could teach "birth control pills are hormone pills that, when taken every day, prevent ovulation and implantation. The church is against these because they can prevent an embryo from implanting, and the church believes a baby is created when sperm and egg meet." Give the info, and then the explanation. Just saying "birth control is bad" with no explanation as to how it works or why its bad doesn't make any sense. Regardless of what they're told by parents or church, some kids are going to have sex. period. It's been that way since people started having sex, people have tried many things to stop it, but kids do it anyway and some always will, and parents and schools and churches need to not only address the ideal, but address the practical as well.

When birth control fails, abortion is not always the next step. Many people use condoms or whatever, but would carry a child if they got pregnant. They use birth control because they don't want a kid right now, but if it happened, they would deal with it. This is probably the majority of people who use b/c, and the minority would look to abortion.

[sinker 0]

What I meant was that they could teach "birth control pills are hormone pills that, when taken every day, prevent ovulation and implantation. The church is against these because they can prevent an embryo from implanting, and the church believes a baby is created when sperm and egg meet." Give the info, and then the explanation. Just saying "birth control is bad" with no explanation as to how it works or why its bad doesn't make any sense

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I agree with that... that was very well put.

And I know abortion isn't always the next step, I only wrote it that way b/c it's easy then to see how BC can easily lead to abortion.

the school I was at acted like birth control didn't exist***

and I agree, that's a shame... I don't think bc choices should be offered, but education on them and, as you say, why the Church is against them, giving accurate and thoughtful education, would go far I think...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Nightingale 0]

Nothing "easily leads to abortion." Abortion is an agonizing decision regardless of the circumstances. Many women, even after a rape, agonize over whether abortion is the right choice. Some might think that circumstance would make it easy. It doesn't.

Abortion and birth control, to most people, are entirely different things. Most people see birth control as preventing pregnancy in the first place. At that point in time, there is no baby to think about. If sperm and egg don't meet, there is no baby. Abortion is ending a pregnancy, and regardless of when people believe life begins, a pregnancy has the potential to create a separate, living human being. Terminating a pregnancy is a damn hard decision. The vast majority of people don't see it as an "easy way out" at all.

[sinker 0]

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Nothing "easily leads to abortion." Abortion is an agonizing decision regardless of the circumstances. Many women, even after a rape, agonize over whether abortion is the right choice. Some might think that circumstance would make it easy. It doesn't.

Abortion and birth control, to most people, are entirely different things. Most people see birth control as preventing pregnancy in the first place. At that point in time, there is no baby to think about. If sperm and egg don't meet, there is no baby. Abortion is ending a pregnancy, and regardless of when people believe life begins, a pregnancy has the potential to create a separate, living human being. Terminating a pregnancy is a damn hard decision. The vast majority of people don't see it as an "easy way out" at all.

i don't mean to paint the picture of women just flippantly saying "oh, i'm knocked up again, better go see Planned Barrenhood -- I mean Parenthood -- after my nail appt." Sure it's a difficult decision... but you've got to be blind to not see that 1.5 million abortions per year (Guttmacher's stats, not mine) doesn't point squarely to a matter of "convenience."

And it's really not hard to see that it was the advent and proliferation of artificial birth control that paved the way for abortion on demand in this country.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Nightingale 0]

Birth control has been around for centuries. So has abortion.

I'm sure there has been a rise in abortions since it was legalized, but we really couldn't keep statistics before it was legalized, since they were either done crudely by someone who wasn't a doctor, or by a doctor disguising it as a D&C. Aside from that, it's also pretty well known that certain medicines and herbs can cause abortions, so those wouldn't be tracked either.

Interesting to note that there has been a 43% decline in abortions from 1994 to 2000, while the number of women of reproductive age has increased. Researchers feel that this is from increased education and access to birth control, not from people having less sex.
Source: about.com

As for "convenience", I guess it depends on what you think "convenient" means. Black women are more than 3 times as likely to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are 2.5 times as likely. A woman who is black or hispanic is also much more likely to be considered "poor" than a white woman of the same age. In 2000, 57% of abortions were performed on women at or below the poverty line.
Source: CDC

I wonder if those women are really thinking "gosh, it wouldn't be convenient for me to have a kid. I'm going to go get an abortion". Somehow, I doubt it. They're probably thinking about the impossibility of affording prenatal care, hospital and doctor bills, time off work, and providing for their other kids, if they have any. That's not so much convenience as it is survival. For some women, taking enough time off work to have a baby, whether they keep the child or not, can mean not being able to pay the rent or buy food, because if they're paid by the hour, they don't always get paid time off.

[sinker 0]

PM sent

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

another pm sent

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Tonto 1]

Wow. I've been trying to keep my comments on the humerous side, but when I read this... your own sourse... that says things like..

"through the better part of a millennia"

and

"at times people in positions of authority have used poor judgment?"

What. Through the better part of a millennia?

And "at most there were only a few thousand capital sentences carried out for heresy in Spain"

Well. There's an apology for you.

It's sick. And your repeated attempts to justify it are even more sickening.

From Monty Python's "The Meaning of life"

"Let us praise God.

O Lord,...
...ooh, You are so big,...
...so absolutely huge.
Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.
Forgive us, O Lord, for this, our dreadful toadying,
And barefaced flattery.

But You are so strong and, well, just so super.
Fantastic.
Amen.

O Lord, please don't burn us.
Don't grill or toast Your flock.
Don't put us on the barbecue
Or simmer us in stock.
Don't braise or bake or boil us
Or stir-fry us in a wok.
Oh, please don't lightly poach us
Or baste us with hot fat.
Don't fricassee or roast us
Or boil us in a vat,
And please don't stick Thy servants, Lord,
In a Rotissomat."

And

"There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood!

Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
God needs everybody's.
Mine! And mine! And mine!

Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaate!"

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Tonto 1]

Speaking of not answering questions...

What's "SCOTUS"

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[TheAnvil 0]

Supreme Court Of The United States.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Tonto 1]

Ahh.

I'll Google Dredd Scott along with that and see what I get.

Thanks for the info.

t

It's the year of the Pig.