Defense ammunition

[jeiber 0]

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Glaser Safety Slugs

I second your suggestion. Personally, I take it a step further and stack my mags in my (.40) Glock 23. First three rounds are Glaser Safety Slugs, remaining rounds are CorBon.

Reasoning: Years ago, the FBI did a study on shootings. It's been a while (someone correct me if I'm misstating this), but essentially the study showed shootings usually involved three shots, three meters, three people, and three seconds.

I chose Glaser Safety Slugs because they have incredible stopping power and stray rounds are less of a threat to others.

If my target is still alive (or hanging around ) after three shots, chances are he's managed to get behind cover. That's when the CorBon's start feeding. I want rounds to go through that cover (car door, windshield, drywall, sofa, heavy leather jacket, etc.). I know many that choose FMJ rounds for maximum penetration, but I choose high velocity hollow points to somewhat reduce the risk of over penetration...

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[Kennedy 0]

Glaser rounds have a lot of undeserved reputation, both good nd bad.

First, they will penetrate a wall, and have enough energy left over to completely pulverize a large pumpkin four feet fromt he wall. Remember, the shot is packed into the bullet so tightly tha is it basically a solid until it strikes a surface. After strking anything, it begins to spread, in a somewhat similar fashion to shotgun shot.
Conclusion: these rounds are not safe to shoot at a wall with your kid behind it and miss (nor are any other rounds)

Second, Glaser slugs are meant to expand very quickly in soft tissue. They leave an amazing wound channel, however, with any shot placement other than torso, at any angle other than directly towards center mass, they can be very uneffective. These rounds routinely do not penetrate extremities and stronger bones.
Conclusion: these rounds do not penetrate deeply (they are not designed to) and so can lead to wasted shots when other rounds would be effective.
Caveat: With proper shot placement, this produces "dropped in his tracks" results. When these rounds strike soft tissue, the pellets within imediately spread in a very wide cone, doing things the body cannot cope with.

Third, these rounds will richochet off hard surfaces, but are significantly less of a threat than other rounds after doing so.

Fourth, these rounds are not less of a threat at longer range. Remember, they are basically solid until they hit something. The internal ballistics/preformance may not be the same as seven yard shootings, but they are still very fast bits of metal, just like other bullets.

Specifically to jeiber: I never saw the advantage of mixing rounds in a magazine. I simply don't think I want to have to remember that things are going to change after a shot or three. I understand carrying a marked magazine with task-specific rounds, but mixing and matching seems like adding unneccesary complexity to the situation.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[jdhill 0]

I've only seen two good reasons for mixing rounds...

1. With an entry shotgun, the first round or two are "dust shot" to remove a lock or hinge(s), the rest are your combat load (#4 Buck is my pref).

2. With a rifle or SMG, particularly one without a last round hold open (HK), the second to last round (rifle) or last three (SMG) is/are a tracer(s) so you know when you're about empty.

I've never really seen a reason to mix in a handgun.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[Kennedy 0]

See, those reasons make sense (in the long guns). The mixed handgun mags, I just don't see the reason.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[DexterBase 0]

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I've seen some true life fire fights on TV where the bad guy is shooting it out with police. Some times they are only a car length apart. Often times bullets are flying everywhere. Even the trained professionals are often missing a lot of shots in these scenarios.

My opinion is that the weapon will never make up for lack of training. Police are often given more credit for weapon skills than they deserve. (Most police are given far less credit in other areas though.) Police officers are given enough weapons training to legally carry weapons but if they want to become truly proficient, they have to pay for off duty training.

Regardless of what weapon you choose to use for personal defense, you need to spend a good amount of time on the range practicing using that weapon. Then you need to drill the remedial actions to deal with a malfunction should it occur.

As with all things, the more realistic the training, the better it will serve you. In my case, Uncle Sam sent me to the Middle East for some two-way range training.

[JohnRich 4]

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I don't shoot a pistol much. If a person has a lot of skill with one, maybe that is the weapon to choose. I shoot a shotgun quite a bit. I have a lot of confidence in shooting one even if most of my practice is shooting birds.

Bingo! That's why I say that there is no "best" home defense firearm. It all depends upon what each individual is comfortable with. A shotgun person is better off with a shotgun, rather than a handgun that he can't shoot well and isn't comfortable with. And vice versa. It all depends upon the individual.

[DexterBase 0]

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...the second to last round (rifle) or last three (SMG) is/are a tracer(s) so you know when you're about empty.

I tried this one in Combat. You're really unlikely to see those tracers. I think keeping track of how many rounds you've fired is a much better method. From now on whenever you shoot, count rounds. Soon counting your rounds fired will become instinctive.

A good use I found for tracers was during convoy operations where each vehicle has a turrett mounted weapon system. I would keep a magazine of just tracers that I could use to point out enemy positions to the gunner. I works a lot better than trying to verbally walk him onto target.

You get contact left. You see where the enemy machine gun position is but the gunner can't see where he fire is coming from. You slap in your magazine of tracers and tell him, "Follow my fire!" Fire a couple bursts and he'll be able to see where you're shooting. It works very well.

[jeiber 0]

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Conclusion: these rounds are not safe to shoot at a wall with your kid behind it and miss

Never said it was. But if I miss with a .40 CorBon round, it'll have no problem going through two interior walls, an exterior wall (I live in FL), the neighbors window, and still easily have enough velocity to kill. A Glaser will hopefully come apart after the first wall or two.

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Conclusion: these rounds do not penetrate deeply (they are not designed to) and so can lead to wasted shots when other rounds would be effective.

I agree. But in a populated urban environment, this is a chance I'm personally willing to take. In Afghanistan, this round has been used when assaulting caves, to reduce ricochets. Not as effective, but the appropriate round for the environment/mission.

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Caveat: With proper shot placement, this produces "dropped in his tracks" results.

Exactly!

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I simply don't think I want to have to remember that things are going to change after a shot or three.

That's just it, with stacked rounds, you don't have to think. Fire until the threat is eliminated. Center of mass is still center of mass.

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I understand carrying a marked magazine with task-specific rounds, but mixing and matching seems like adding unneccesary complexity to the situation.

This is an extremely bad idea for home defense or concealed carry, which is what I was discussing. In a high stress situation, most people can barely reload their weapon, let alone associate colors with types of ammunition. This is exactly why I don't believe in 'safety's' on pistols intended for combat/defense, either...

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[jeiber 0]

See, those reasons make sense (in the long guns). The mixed handgun mags, I just don't see the reason.***

You guys are talking about combat. I think this thread is primarily discussing home defense and concealed carry. I'm ex military, and am very familiar with unconventional warfare. I agree with both your comments regarding that scenario.

In the civilian world, rules of engagement are very different than in combat, the situations are very different, and the 'rule of three's' that I mentioned don't apply to military engagements.

This being the case, it's not reasonable to apply military SOP's and tactics to civilian situations...

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[KevinMcGuire 0]

Why not have the dog and the gun?

I do.
Several years ago my wife and I were sleeping when my Rottie began barking as if someone where at the door. The Rottie ran through the doggie door in the kitchen and instantly started going absolutly fuc*ing bat shit crazy on some one or some thing on the other side of that door.
I remember laying in bed thinking "I don't even need to get out of bed. The Rottie has it covered. What ever or who ever is in the back yard has just figured out that they have made a very big mistake.

I did however reach over and get out my gun just in case I heard a gun shot but thankfully I heard none.
After a long while, the Rottie mellowed out and came back to bed.
The next morning, I found lots of blood near the gate that enters the back yard. I never did find out what she was "playing" with that night but what ever or who ever it was never came back again. I guess my Rottie plays a bit too rough

[Kennedy 0]

That makes a lot of sense, and proves once again that there is no "best" gun or load.

I live in a house in suburban New Jersey. Each wall is two layers of half inch drywall with 2x4s every 18" on center. Exterior wall is brick, roof is plywood, tar paper and shingle. The next house is 25-50 yards away.

For me, there's just about no way a round is going to make it out. (did I mention the windows are double or safey glass?)

In your case, the situation is entirely diferent, and requires a completely separate set of precautions

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I understand carrying a marked magazine with task-specific rounds, but mixing and matching seems like adding unneccesary complexity to the situation.

This is an extremely bad idea for home defense or concealed carry, which is what I was discussing. In a high stress situation, most people can barely reload their weapon, let alone associate colors with types of ammunition. This is exactly why I don't believe in 'safety's' on pistols intended for combat/defense, either...

You are correct, I was crossing LEO/military with home/self defense, becuase in those instances there is a clear reason and need to distinguish. Now I understand your choice as well.

Also, I agree about fighting handguns, and it's one more reason I like my Taurus 650 and a vast selection of Glocks. I believe in simplicity. The Taurus has two controls, three if you count the ejector plunger. Glock has three, four if you count racking the slide. Everything else has more. Reliability is nice, too.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Ron 7]

I like dogs.

Alarms, and defense all in one.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Kennedy 0]

I like dogs, too. Especially mine.

However, I like a house alarm and a house gun, too.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[jeiber 0]

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I believe in simplicity. The Taurus has two controls, three if you count the ejector plunger. Glock has three, four if you count racking the slide. Everything else has more. Reliability is nice, too.

I feel like kind of an idiot now - I went home last night, checked my Glock mag, and it was loaded all the way up with CorBon. Duh... I still stand by my argument and theories though. My Rossi .357 in the night stand (home defense only, don't carry it) is loaded up with 3 Glaser, 3 hollow points. Speed loader next to it has 6 hollow points. Glock is what I carry. Hmmm, now we should get into a type of holster debate! Hee hee, I love stirring the pot!

*sigh*, anyway I hate it when I screw up my own facts! Oh well, hopefully some of the points we all brought up will help others make a sound decision on ammo selection!

Since we're on the topic, what type of hollow point ammo are people carrying? I know Black Talon's were big years ago, before it was pulled off the shelf. What's the newest fad in defense ammo?

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[DexterBase 0]

This is actually what the thread was about originally but I've enjoyed the opinions on related topics we've covered here.

I have two magazines loaded at all times. One is loaded with Speer Gold Dot (FBI issue ammo) and the other is loaded with Federal HyraShok.

I've never shot anyone with either one, but I'm sure both will do the trick. I keep the HyrdaShok in my weapon which stays loaded when I'm home.

Read the article I posted in this thread. It gives some valuable insight into handgun wounds and factors to consider when choosing ammunition.

[Kennedy 0]

I keep 129 grain Hydrashok .38 spl for my Taurus, plus assorted cheaper practice ammo (steel case, lead SWCs, etc). I've been considering checking out Winchester's 125 gr Super-X JHP (it's +P), but that's for the future.

Since I'm "between autos," I don't stock any other ammo at the moment.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[scdrnr 0]

I don't have much experience with the .40 S&W cartridge, but in 9mm and .45, the Speer Gold Dot is the way to go in 124gr. and 230 gr. respectively. These round have an excellent track record and are top performers in tests. The bonded construction keep them together even after penetrating hard barriers, and they expand in a reliable, controlled manner without clogging like others. Hydrashoks are okay but in testing are more prone to either clogging and failing to expand, or jacket core separation after passing through a hard barrier, leading to shallow penetration. Anything will work fine on bare gelatin, for more challenging conditions the Gold Dot is a performer. A round that doesn't penetrate is more of a failure than not expanding at all, if I can't find Gold Dot, I carry Remington Gold Saber (very accurate, but prone to occaisional clogging), then Winchester SXT (also occaisionally clogs) in that order. If I can't find those I'll carry good old FMJ. Its reliable, predictable, and actually, the only thing I have ever used or seen used first hand on humans. (but I have used all types of rounds while hunting, rifle and pistol, and my opinions are based on that in addition to second hand reports and testing) Remember, with pistols its shot placement that counts. Expansion only matters on marginal hits. Energy transfer is a myth in handguns, you need at least 1500 fps to do tissue damage from cavitation. I suggest the 180gr. for a .40.

I agree a rifle or shotgun is a better weapon, but since I keep mine in a safe while I carry a pistol all day, its usually the pistol that is most accesible. Sure, if I have time I'll grab an M4 from the safe, but chances are the .45 will be in my hands first. So practice, practice, practice....

[steve1 5]

DexterBase,
I learned a lot from your article. One part that was interesting was that the wound channel from a hollow point pistol bullet often isn't much different than a hit from a solid. A hollow point shot from a rifle expands tremendously. Often times too much, and it may not penetrate deep enough. Apparently this rarely happens with a hollow point pistol bullet. I guess the slower velocity of a pistol explains why hollow points may not be much better than a solid in a hand gun.

The information on penetration was also interesting. Having too fragile of a bullet may not penetrate to the vitals. I've had this happen a few times on big game animals. I sometimes shoot Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets because of their extreme accuracy. Although they are very accurate they sometimes blow up when hitting bone, and don't penetrate deep enough. They are more or less a hollow point. Not a good bullet for bigger animals.

I wonder if anyone has any literature on the effectiveness of a shotgun in combat situations. I recall reading somewhere where a perpetrator rarely stays down for long when hit with one.

[Kennedy 0]

As for pistol bullet's terminal ballistics, you have to remember that they are already so much larger than rifle bullets. The speeds are also very different.

Pistol bullets travel slowly enough that if you design a bullet that will open up more, then it will be so soft that it doesn't penetrate. That's the pro-con of Glasers. They open up with tremendous wounds, but don't penetrate. It's a balancing act. A .45 ACP round is 150% the size of a .30 cal round. It doesn't need to open up as much to leave a "big enough" channel. It needs to stay small so it's lesser velocity will still carry it into vitals.

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Having too fragile of a bullet may not penetrate to the vitals. I've had this happen a few times on big game animals.

This is true, but you have to be aware of the opposite effect. If you shoot to hard of a bullet then it may punch through the animal, and waste it's energy. If you use very soft bullets on Elk or very tough skinned game, they will not penetrate, like you said, and you now have a wounded animal. If you use very hard bullets on deer or smaller game, they may exit the animal, and you have wasted effective energy.

You can argue the best end point for a bullet (against the skin far side vs still in the vitals), but you have to agree that if it exits, energy was not transfered to the animal.

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I wonder if anyone has any literature on the effectiveness of a shotgun in combat situations. I recall reading somewhere where a perpetrator rarely stays down for long when hit with one.

Again, this depends highly on using the appropriate round to the situation. A 12 gauge slug will put down a man at 100 yards, where number 4 shot won't even bother him. It depends on the energy transfered by the bullet or shot to the target. (also, any shot that doesn't hit the target is again a waste of energy)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*