Deadly Force Guidelines Revised

[Newbie 0]

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Except for the fact that the police have to chase them long enough to get the helicopter overhead, right? How many people ever escape from a helicopter pursuit? How many from a vehicular pursuit? Probably about the same.

I'm not sure, but i think the question to be asked is "how many innocent people get crashed into/knocked over in a car pursuit compared to a helicopter pursuit?" as that was the issue you were commenting on right? (stop car pursuits altogether?)

You are right - a cop has to be in pursuit until a helicopter is available and in the area - that doesnt always happen. However, once a helicopter has you, i can'treally see how cars pursuing someone would help. It would just make the suspect push that much harder, and take that many more risks.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[justinb138 0]

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I have already said, if a cop is in genuine fear of his/her life, or that of a civilian, be that from a guy at the wheelf of a car or weilding a ski, take them out.

What makes you think that this isn't what they did?

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Restricting the use of a gun until someone shoots at you out of a car window as they try to mow you and innocents down, is ridiculous.

However, deadly force is a last resort. It's not meant to be a deterrent. Pepper spray and a nightstick are deterrents.

They're non-lethal tools used to stop someone. Try using either of those on someone coming at you with a car, if they have a gun or not.

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A bullet coming at you is not going to deter you from anything, it is going to kill you.

Yes, but shooting someone is a very effective means of defending yourself when they are trying to kill you. Knowing that there is a possibility that you will be shot if you try to run over a police officer deters criminals from doing it. Without the threat of that, why shouldn't they?

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Someone should know they have done something seriously wrong before they are shot. I don't think a 13 year old kid, out on a joyride, reversing, probably unable to see the rear view mirror or behind him should expect to be taken out, especially when he was not, in that moment, putting anyones life in danger.

How do you know that he wasn't well aware of what he was doing? How do you know he was just backing up? How do you know he wasn't knowing putting others' lives in danger? I don't remember seeing any details of that in the news story.

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Sure the kid did something wrong. Sure he deserved to be punished. No one is doubting that. Had the officers been in genuine threat for their lives, i don't think there would be an issue here, whether this kid was 13 or 7. At the end of the day, as has been reported, they were out of harms way and should have looked to contain the situation, not act as judge, jury and executioner in a situation that i don; think (and i could well be wrong, the investigation will soon tell) was the definition of "life threatening".

If the officers were out of harms way, and completely safe, and shot him anyway, they should be held accountable for their actions. I doubt that any cop would just shoot a 13yo kid if they didn't have to.

Instead of berating the police for defending themselves, why not ask where this kid's parents were while he was out stealing a car?

[justinb138 0]

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I'm not sure, but i think the question to be asked is "how many innocent people get crashed into/knocked over in a car pursuit compared to a helicopter pursuit?" as that was the issue you were commenting on right? (stop car pursuits altogether?)

I think the question to be asked is "what happens if the chase is not in one of the few cities that actually has police helicopters?"

[Trent 0]

No, my point was that there is going to be a chase at some point. After the bad guys know they're being pursued, there's no telling what they'll do, cops in cars behind them or in helicopters above them. There is always going to be a chase when someone is caught and is behind the wheel and wants to get away. And, I'd bet that none of them expect to get away, really, since we see them all the time getting stopped on RealTV.

Like the previous poster said, what if the town doesn't have police helicopters?

Look, someone running from the cops is going to be putting people at risk in general. Someone who is deliberately going after cops or civilians, in cars or on foot, is now using that car as a weapon.

Oh, hello again!

[tbrown 26]

I'm a 49 year old white male with a wife and two teenage kids. And if I pulled a stunt like that, stealing a car at 4am, leading the cops on a chase, and then backing into the cops' car, you know what people would say ? They'd say, "WHAT was he thinking ?!? What the hell was he doing in a stolen car in the first place ?" I'm sorry the kid's dead and very sorry for his family, but somebody else besides just the cops need to be accountable for their actions.

And yes, the cops need to be accountable too. If we let them carry weapons and give them the authority to use them, they have to be accountable for how they use them, they don't get a free ride either.

Chief Bratton's never struck me as a softie though, so I'd give him the benefit of a doubt. He's wanted to change the policy for over a year and has his reasons.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[diablopilot 2]

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You know what they should do? Get rid of all the police persuits, period.

Naw, they should just get rid of crime. I mean crime is just people getting in trouble. If nothing is illegal we wouldn't have these problems.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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Someone should know they have done something seriously wrong before they are shot. I don't think a 13 year old kid, out on a joyride, reversing, probably unable to see the rear view mirror or behind him should expect to be taken out, especially when he was not, in that moment, putting anyones life in danger.

That's utter crap.

So a 13 year old has a gun and is holding a group of children hostage in a school (I know, it's far fetched). He starts poping caps in students randomly. A sniper has a bead on him. They shouldn't shoot, cause the kid doesn't know they're being bad?

Fuck the snivley sensitive "I'm horrified" shit in this thread. Life sucks, it ain't fair, and if you fuck with the bull, you'll get the horn.

Good guys and and Darwin can share the point on this one, 13 year old car theiving, homicidal ass wipe won't be doing it again. 0 points dude.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Newbie 0]

Comparing a kid shooting people in school to a kid who did something wrong and was running scared is bizarre.

Would you be saying exactly what you have just said in this post if - and god forbid - this was your, or your brothers/sisters child that got shot? Would you then have the guts to say "well sis, i mean, i know nephew Jonny got riddled with bullets, but hey, he really shouldn't have stolen that car?"

Would you go up to the officer who shot your own son, look him in the eye and say "Don't worry, i don't hold it against you - you were doing your job, even though my son was just reversing, didnt hit your car dead on, scraped down the side of it, and even though you and your partner were able to get out of the car, and move away in good time, and therefore one presumes, were not in any direct danger of my son, who, was generally a good kid, but hey, when we are 13 we all do stuff we regret later, and who was in a situation which escalated in the space of 3 short minutes and who probably was scared and running so that he wouldnt get in trouble with his mom and me, when you shot and killed him, but he was a threat so its ok"? Would you really be able to say that?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, and god forbig ANYONE should have to deal with a situation like this, but i'm just wondering if you would have the same view if this was something closer to home.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Jimbo 0]

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Would you be saying exactly what you have just said in this post if - and god forbid - this was your, or your brothers/sisters child that got shot? Would you then have the guts to say "well sis, i mean, i know nephew Jonny got riddled with bullets, but hey, he really shouldn't have stolen that car tried to kill another human being with that car?"

That seems a bit more like the situation at hand, no?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Kennedy 0]

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"Even though the police officers immediately got out of their squad car, moved out of the path of Brown's car and were not in danger of being hit, Garcia fired off 10 rounds, killing the boy."

This is taken from the LA times

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By John Mack, John Mack is president of the Los Angeles Urban League.

Using your quoted commentary as a basis for facts is like quoting Sarah Brady when discussing gun policy.

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If this were the case, that they had time to get out, move away from their vehicle and be safe from him backing towards them, how is that justified self defence when they were already safe?

Standing on foot with a felon trying to run you over with a car is hardly "already safe."

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Kennedy 0]

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You are right - a cop has to be in pursuit until a helicopter is available and in the area - that doesnt always happen. However, once a helicopter has you, i can'treally see how cars pursuing someone would help. It would just make the suspect push that much harder, and take that many more risks.

Helicopter pursuits work best in open terrain like highways and rural areas (the areas least likely to have a helicopter readily availible).

Helicopter pursuits work least well in urban areas and other places with too many line-of-sight restrictions (of course, these are the areas most likely ot have a helicopter ready to go).


Think about what you've seen on all those "world's deadliest" this and that shows. The only time you see a helicopter is near a big city. In the back woods of Georgia or the suburban maze of New Jersey, all you ever see is the dash mounted cams from police cruisers.

ps - helicopters are damned expensive, especially if you want one availible for every time a suspect runs form the cops.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

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Comparing a kid shooting people in school to a kid who did something wrong and was running scared is bizarre.

You don't hang out with inner-city youth very often, do you?

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Would you be saying exactly what you have just said in this post if - and god forbid - this was your, or your brothers/sisters child that got shot? Would you then have the guts to say "well sis, i mean, i know nephew Jonny got riddled with bullets, but hey, he really shouldn't have stolen that car tried to kill another human being with that car?"

No, I wouldn't be saying sorry, I'd be shaking the ever living shit out of them asking why they raised my nephew/cousin so poorly that he ended up having to be shot by police.

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Would you go up to the officer who shot...

Save your BS hypotheticals. You really need to distinguish between articles by reporters and the crap written in commentaries by interested parties.

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I'm not trying to be antagonistic, and god forbig ANYONE should have to deal with a situation like this, but i'm just wondering if you would have the same view if this was something closer to home.

This wouldn't happen closer to home. In my family, anything even remotely approaching this level of stupidity is taken care of long before it involves, let alone endangers, anyone else.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Newbie 0]

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You don't hang out with inner-city youth very often, do you?

Actually i run a project in London, working with inner city kids in central London schools, in one of the country's most deprived areas, and have spent about 5 years working with teenagers who have been excluded from education on part time basis outside of that. I know what goes on with these kids and how they work, i see it everyday.

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This wouldn't happen closer to home. In my family, anything even remotely approaching this level of stupidity is taken care of long before it involves, let alone endangers, anyone else.

Well you and I are lucky - we both had 2 parents looking out for us, as well as most likely other family members.

When you are young and growing up, and you might come from a one parent family, where that parent works 2 jobs to pay the bills and you are generally a good kid (Devin Brown was not in a gang) and where you can't keep a leash on your child 24/7, especially when they get older and start to want to hang out with friends outside the house. I see it everyday with kids i work with. You must have had a pretty straight laced child hood, but most people, especially those in big cities tend to grow up quicker, and want to impress their peer group, especially young males. Now of course that doesnt mean they will all go around being involved in stealing a car, but some will. This kid made a childish mistake many of us have or could have made when we were growing up, and until someone can prove to me (and i hope to hell the FBI can do so in this investiagtion) that he deserved to be shot to pieces because he was attempting to run over one of the cops on scene, i will hold my view that this shooting was one that i cast my doubts on as being justified.

Perhaps we should pick the conversation up then, as right now, we are both just speculating over what happened (and believe me, i would LOVE nothing more than to be proven wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt by this investigation).

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Ron 7]

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Would you be saying exactly what you have just said in this post if - and god forbid - this was your, or your brothers/sisters child that got shot? Would you then have the guts to say "well sis, i mean, i know nephew Jonny got riddled with bullets, but hey, he really shouldn't have stolen that car?"

The fault is the kids and his parents.

He was a criminal. He was a danger.

Good on the cops, bad on the kid and his parents.

This liberal crying shit kills me.

The kid was a criminal. He led the police on a car chase and did not stop.

1. He stole a car.
2. He led the police on a car chase.
3. When cornered he tried to ram his way out.

At any point in the above the kid could have stopped. He didn't. The cops had to react to this kid at every turn. Finnaly the kid become dangerous and the cops ended the threat.

Good on them.

If they had shot the kid for #1, or #2 I would not be so nice on them. But the kid tried to turn a car into a weapon.

Good on the police.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Newbie 0]

Ron if you are right about #3, i will put my hands up and agree with you 100%. As i said, if that kid were 7 years old, saw the cop and thought "I know - i will ram him out the way and knock him over so i can escape", what the hell else are they meant to do other than stop him? If that means shooting him, well there is little other option at that point.

What i have a problem with is the fact i think this kid was not on some murderous killing spree, as is being suggested, and was probably running scared. It might seem odd to you and i but to a 13 year old who doesn't get into trouble usually, being handed back to his parents by the cops is probably a big deal to him. Yeah thats fools logic (because he shouldn't have been out involved with the stealing of a car, in the first place!) but at 13 you can do some pretty stupid things - some of us get away with them, others don't, you most guys know that around that age, you tend to act first, think later, especially if peers and girls are around. A 13 year old's inability to drive properly, also assisted with him knocking into a cruiser - a mistake that should not cost him his life if it is proven that the police were not in direct danger (and by all accounts it sounds like they had time to get out, and move away from the car).
As i said to Kennedy, this is going around in circles - let's bring this one back up again when we get some more insight into what happened from the FBI.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Ron 7]

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What i have a problem with is the fact i think this kid was not on some murderous killing spree, as is being suggested, and was probably running scared.

What I have a problem is that it seems everyone wants to cry about the kid and crucify the police.

The facts we know are:
1. The kid stole a car.
2. The kid ran from the police.
3. The kid tried to escape from being contained.

If at anytime the kid had simply stopped, and raised his hands he would be alive today.

If a cop tells me to stop and raise my hands...Guess what? I stop and rasie my hands. When I was 13 guess what I would ahve done...yep stopped and raised my hands....I might have also pisse myself if they had guns drawn. The LAST thing I would do then or now is run.

The fault of this accident is the kids...You could put some blame on the parents, but at 13 you need to act like a man.

The cops didn't shoot for fun. They shot since they felt threatend.

I want the FBI to look into it, but unless it seems the kid had surendered I still don't have an issue with the shooting.

He was a criminal IN THE ACT, and he was a danger.

The police were not judge and jury, they were ending a situation that was dangerous.

If the police had let him go, and he ran over a nun walking to mass....The cops would have been sued for that also.

The fault lies with the CRIMINAL, not the cops.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Jimbo 0]

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The facts we know are:
1. The kid stole a car.
2. The kid ran from the police.
3. The kid tried to escape from being contained.

Let's focus on what I assume the cops knew at the time.

1. Someone capable of driving stole a car.
2. Someone capable of driving ran from the police.
3. Someone capable of driving tried to escape from being contained - by using a car as a weapon.

People seem to be focusing on the perps age (13) but not on the acts. How many people would have a problem with this if it were an 18 year old in the drivers seat? How were the cops to know? It's not as though they had the opportunity to stop the kid and identify him. Right?

Of course none of that matters now. Whatever his age he did try to turn the car into a weapon and for that he lost his life.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[crozby 0]

Do any of you have kids? Can any of you remember the kinds of fucked up shit that seemed like a good idea when you were 13? Did you deserve to die for it?

[Ron 7]

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Can any of you remember the kinds of fucked up shit that seemed like a good idea when you were 13?

Oh yeah.

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Did you deserve to die for it?

If the cops caught me and told me to stop, but instead I ran and then tried to run over them with a car...Yes.

See my issue is not that a kid stole a car. It was that he knew he was doing something so bad that he decided to run from the police....Then he tried to escape by damaging a cop car, or even killing a cop.

At any point he could have surendered, but he instead chose to escalate it tilll the police had to stop him.

If he would run into a cop car, he was a risk to ANYONE on the streets.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Jimbo 0]

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Do any of you have kids? Can any of you remember the kinds of fucked up shit that seemed like a good idea when you were 13? Did you deserve to die for it?

If you're going to criticize then put yourself in the shoes of the officer. Is age important when someone is trying to kill you? Let's drop the whole "But he was only 13" thing, it's an emotional response and has no real bearing on the issue at hand.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[justinb138 0]

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Can any of you remember the kinds of fucked up shit that seemed like a good idea when you were 13? Did you deserve to die for it?

I can remember, it was only 8 years ago. I did some stupid shit, and I was well aware of what would happen if I got caught. I did have a meeting with the police sometime around then. I did what they told me to do, no problems at all.

[crozby 0]

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See my issue is not that a kid stole a car. It was that he knew he was doing something so bad that he decided to run from the police....Then he tried to escape by damaging a cop car, or even killing a cop.

My point is just that on the whole kids are pretty bad at things like morality, making judgements or taking responsibility for their actions.

Those are the reasons we don't let them drink, drive, operate heavy machinery etc. It's not that they are technically unable to do those things, its that they don't have a grasp of the responsiblity doing those things entails.

That is why your criticism of this child seems wrong to me. He clearly is too young and experienced in life to make sensible decisions, and by his actions he proved that pretty conclusively. Blame the parents or blame society, but don't in my opinion blame the children.

[Ron 7]

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My point is just that on the whole kids are pretty bad at things like morality, making judgements or taking responsibility for their actions.

Those are the reasons we don't let them drink, drive, operate heavy machinery etc. It's not that they are technically unable to do those things, its that they don't have a grasp of the responsiblity doing those things entails.

That is why your criticism of this child seems wrong to me. He clearly is too young and experienced in life to make sensible decisions, and by his actions he proved that pretty conclusively. Blame the parents or blame society, but don't in my opinion blame the children

If he didn't know what he was doing was bad....Then why did he run from the cops?

He was a criminal. Not a stole a piece of gum kind of 13 year old criminal. He stole a car (Grand Theft), Led the police on a chase (Evasion), and tried to use the car as a weapon to escape (assult with a deadly weapon).

Claiming he didn't know what he was doing is wrong is obtuse.

The same could be said for almost anyone.

He was old enough to steal a car and run from the cops, he was old enough to try and escape by using the car as a ram.

He was old enough to be shot for his choices.

In the Army you know what they call a person with a gun that is shooting at you? A Combatant....You know what they call them when they are 13? A combatant...A 13 year old girl with an AK47? A combatant.

What do you call an adult that steals car? A criminal.
What do you call an adult that tries to use a car as a weapon? A Criminal.

What do you call an 13 year old that steals a car and tries to use it as a weapon? .... A criminal.

If the kid was 6....I might agree, but 13 is an adult in many parts of the world.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[christelsabine 1]

If he didn't know what he was doing was bad....Then why did he run from the cops?

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That kid was doing exactly what every kid would do: Trying to escape. Slow down Ron, it's a kid. Not an enemy.

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He was a criminal. Not a stole a piece of gum kind of 13 year old criminal. He stole a car (Grand Theft), Led the police on a chase (Evasion), and tried to use the car as a weapon to escape (assult with a deadly weapon).
Claiming he didn't know what he was doing is wrong is obtuse.
The same could be said for almost anyone.
He was old enough to steal a car and run from the cops, he was old enough to try and escape by using the car as a ram.
He was old enough to be shot for his choices.

Reading this, is simply scaring. That kid simply made a pile of s***, didn't see the way to escape... What's result: Situation is becoming harder and harder. Not only for the cops. For a 13 y/o, too.

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In the Army you know what they call a person with a gun that is shooting at you? A Combatant....You know what they call them when they are 13? A combatant...A 13 year old girl with an AK47? A combatant.

That is a little boy and not an armed marine. Get real, Ron.

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If the kid was 6....I might agree, but 13 is an adult in many parts of the world.

That's BS. Not you personally but, many of US posters claimed that Germany allows children below 21 yrs to drink alcohol. And you just say a 13 y/o kid is an adult? You added: In many parts of the world. Lame excuse. You just need that as an example. That incident happened in the US, not somewhere else in the world. (Just to avoid misunderstandings: It could happen everywhere, we had similar story here with a guy of same age (+/- 1 yr), doing a long hell trip to escape with a truck. It was a dangerous situation for the cops.)

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Ron 7]

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That kid was doing exactly what every kid would do: Trying to escape. Slow down Ron, it's a kid. Not an enemy.

That kid was a CRIMINAL. He didn't steal a pack of gum, he stole a car, ran from the cops and tried to use the car as a weapon.

Some 13 year old...you let your kids act like that?

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Reading this, is simply scaring. That kid simply made a pile of s***, didn't see the way to escape... What's result: Situation is becoming harder and harder. Not only for the cops. For a 13 y/o, too.

You would rather blame the cops for this situation, I choose to blame the person who created and elevated the situation...You want to blame the cops...Thats like blaming the woman who gets raped.

Put the blame where it belongs...On the CRIMINAL.

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That is a little boy and not an armed marine. Get real, Ron.

You get real. He was not an armed Marine, but he was a CRIMINAL that was using a car as a weapon.

If this 13 year old had killed someone does him being 13 make him LESS of a CRIMINAL?

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That's BS. Not you personally but, many of US posters claimed that Germany allows children below 21 yrs to drink alcohol.

I dont care what you do in your country.
I don't care what your parents allow you to do...I care what you or your children do.

If they break a law, being 13 is not an excuse.

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And you just say a 13 y/o kid is an adult? You added: In many parts of the world. Lame excuse.

No you attacking me is lame. I treat 13 year olds as minor adults. They still have to follow the rules of the house, but they ALWAYS have to follow the law.

You may raise your children with no reguard for the police...But this is what they will get.

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That incident happened in the US, not somewhere else in the world.

And if it had happend anywhere else I would hold the same position I do now..

You are always looking for reasons to forgive people for the CRIMES they do.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334