Tonto 1 #26 December 10, 2004 I'd like to. Do you have one? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #27 December 10, 2004 QuoteDo you believe in Fairies? Yup. Saw a couple of them holding hands last time I was in Austin. OH, you mean the little fantasy creatures with the wings and the pixie dust? Nope, don't believe in those... --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #28 December 10, 2004 Quote ...he found evidence, oh but everyone's an expert. Never mind. He found evidence? I missed that part. Could you kindly point it out? Thanks in advance. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #29 December 10, 2004 Quote Am I making an argument based on the reputation of this guy? Sure I am. But it's worth at least SOMETHING!! But no, his claim has to be dismissed off hand because it conflicts with what I'm secure believing. In other words: As an atheist Flew = Hero and brilliant man. As a believer in a 'God' Flew = Moron and assbackward zealot. 1) Arguments from authority are really low on the usefullness scale. 2) I didn't dismiss his claim "off hand" as you say, but rather because so far it appears to be an empty claim with no evidence whatsoever submitted to back it up. Rather, it appears to be a tired old argument that has been destroyed based on the circular nature of the reasoning time and again. Nothing new here. 3) No one characterized him as ass backward or as a zeolot. We're just highly skeptical of the nature of his elusive evidence. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #30 December 10, 2004 Quote Realizing the lack of evidence should logically only lead to agnostism. This is a common argument, but I've always found it to be rather odd. Are you agnostic about ghosts? How about Santa Claus? Car key gnomes? Unicorns? I don't know about you, but I can't disprove any of these examples, but never the less, I don't believe in any of them. It seems silly to say I'm agnostic with regard to Santa because I can't prove he doesn't really exist. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeteH 0 #31 December 10, 2004 QuoteQuoteRealizing the lack of evidence should logically only lead to agnostism. Simple question that I hope you'll answer. Do you believe in Fairies? I haven't seen any evidence that fairies (mythological humanlike creatures with wings) exist or have existed. But I know that lack of evidence doesn't prove that there are no fairies. Because of the lack of evidence I think (or believe if you want to use that term) it's (lots) more likely that fairies don't exist than they exist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeteH 0 #32 December 10, 2004 QuoteQuote Realizing the lack of evidence should logically only lead to agnostism. This is a common argument, but I've always found it to be rather odd. Are you agnostic about ghosts? How about Santa Claus? Car key gnomes? Unicorns? I don't know about you, but I can't disprove any of these examples, but never the less, I don't believe in any of them. It seems silly to say I'm agnostic with regard to Santa because I can't prove he doesn't really exist. -Josh I just answered to fairies. Yes, I'm agnostic about everything. Lack of evidence doesn't prove something can't/won't exist. I only can say it's not likely, but I can't say it's impossible. At first it may sound silly that we can't prove anything (only mathematical problems can be proved as true or false) and therefore we don't KNOW anything. Everything (besides mathematical proven facts) is just speculation and probabilites. In reality there of course either is Santa Claus or there isn't, but reality is irrelevant as we don't have any tools to prove it. I think this is the wisest thing any human can say (and understand): "I only know that I don't know anything" -Socrates Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #33 December 10, 2004 Quotethere are phyicists who are saying they are finding scietific evidence of god besides this guy. That can invariably be boiled down to..... ...We've used all our knowledge, technology and processes that exist and cannot explain X. Therefore it must be God. It's a cop out, not evidence. It's a reason to stop trying. If you chalk up the unexplained to supernatural forces, then you don't try to explain it anymore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,262 #34 December 10, 2004 QuoteI'd like to. Do you have one? Uhhh, I've got some stuff that might make you see one! j/kDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,262 #35 December 10, 2004 QuoteI just answered to fairies. Yes, I'm agnostic about everything. Hmm, Ok, well while I admire you for sticking to your argument in the face of obvious provocation I've got to ask: Have you ever made up your mind about anything in your entire life? Edit cos I just seen this, QuoteBecause of the lack of evidence I think (or believe if you want to use that term) it's (lots) more likely that fairies don't exist than they exist. There are many people who are quite willing to show you photographs of fairies. Has anyone ever shown you a photo of God? 2nd edit: Damnit Aggie, you just gotta drag everything into the gutter dontchaDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #36 December 10, 2004 QuoteThere are many people who are quite willing to show you photographs of fairies. Has anyone ever shown you a photo of God? No, but I saw a grilled cheese with the face of Mary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sinkster 0 #37 December 10, 2004 In response to whether to ignore his views on no afterlife etc., where have I said to do so? Embrace or reject them I don't care. The fact that he went from athiesm to belief in an intelligent creator is interesting enough. I didn't post this to espose any particular religion. Also, the post about the drunk bishop is hilarious (and sad), lol. The news article isn't a scientific journal so we can't go into detail on exactly why he came to his decision. The only thing we know is that "he follows the evidence wherever it leads" so either he is lying (yeah, right) or he actually believes he has evidence enough. He has a history of being published in prestigious journals and will be published on his new material too. I don't expect anyone to believe based on this guy, but to establish that there are people who believe on a rational basis, from evidence, and for at least some respect for that. And no, I'm not going to respect some drunken bishop playing golf in a thunderstorm, what a moron. The fact that this guy does not have a religious agenda also makes this article stand out. But it's not very fashionable to believe in a god these days, that's for the redneck states, not the sophisticate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #38 December 10, 2004 Quotethat there are people who believe on a rational basis, from evidence, and for at least some respect for that. This thread, that article and this guy show nothing like that. His basis is not rational, it is philosophical and based on a leap of faith to explain the otherwise unexplainable. There is no evidence other than lack of evidence proving something else, it's pure assumption and speculation. He could be right, and I respect his beliefs. But there's no evidence or rational basis to believe in god or not believe in god. There are only unexplained things that people guess about the source of. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricTheRed 0 #39 December 10, 2004 QuoteQuoteIt's impossible to prove any of those two possibilies. The way I look at it is, folks will believe what the want to believe. Be it in a god, no god, who the god is and what the god does, if there is one at all. So I live my life (in respect to this topic) by my heart and believe how I want to believe, independantly of what other try to tell me. And the way I look at it is, we'll all find out the truth for sure when we die. I'll drink to that!illegible usually Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #40 December 10, 2004 Quote"that's for the redneck states, not the sophisticate." That's a stereotype. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #41 December 10, 2004 QuoteAnd the way I look at it is, we'll all find out the truth for sure when we die. I agree with you on that part. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #42 December 10, 2004 QuoteIn response to whether to ignore his views on no afterlife etc., where have I said to do so? Embrace or reject them I don't care. The fact that he went from athiesm to belief in an intelligent creator is interesting enough. To me, the fact that he also disagrees with vitually every religion going kinda down plays the force his conclusion might have on whether or not any one of them is right. If you bring a witness to the stand you better like everything they have to say. Picking only one bit of their testimony as the bit you like doesn't work... the court still get's to hear all the other stuff that doesn't sit well with your case. It's gonna be difficult for Religion "X" to point to this guy and say - "see, he came to the right conclusion after years of thaught"... because he's also come to the conclusion that Religion "X" is wrong about some very key concepts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #43 December 10, 2004 QuoteIt's gonna be difficult for Religion "X" to point to this guy and say - "see, he came to the right conclusion after years of thaught"... because he's also come to the conclusion that Religion "X" is wrong about some very key concepts. I don’t think that was the point. The basic belief in a Creator, however, is a very significant step. There is no foundation for growth in that direction until at least that is established in one's mind. No religion will stand or fall based on this guy's testimony. However, based on his reputation, I think it might be influential to some and positive for religion in general. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,262 #44 December 10, 2004 I don't know why but I just can't stop myself from answering, Ok here goes QuoteNo, but I saw a grilled cheese with the face of Mary. [sigh] Have you ever seen Mary?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #45 December 10, 2004 Yep...in a grilled cheese. It was on the internet so it has to be true. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sinkster 0 #46 December 10, 2004 I'm sorry, but you really got me chuckling when you put "not rational" and "philosophical" in the same sentence. So philosophers as a lot are irrational? lol. Philosophy is founded on reason and logic. It's the bedrock. Empirical evidence you can touch is another story, but we can't touch 'imaginary' numbers yet we perform great feats of engineering with them. Do they exist? (who nother can of worms :) ) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 187 #47 December 10, 2004 QuoteNEW YORK Dec 9, 2004 — A British philosophy professor who has been a leading champion of atheism for more than a half-century has changed his mind. He now believes in God more or less based on scientific evidence.... First off, anyone who characterizes himself as an "atheist" is likely to define his stance using belief as a gold standard - theism is the basis for atheism. "Elect Farfoon!" and "Anybody but Farfoon!" are both standpoints related to Farfoon. "Farfoon who?" is something else altogether. Someone who majored in Philosophy and dedicated his career to trying to figure out that nonsense is, in fact, nonsense is not my idea of a solid resource in any event. The fact that after tilting at windmills for his whole career, in a state of confusion he threw in the towel is of no particular significance. My Sanscrit is weak, but there is a term that shows up in Zen that translates loosely to English as "wrong question," or maybe "would you rephrase that so it makes sense?" The series of logical fallacies that are used to support theism usually boil down to that concept in the first premise or two - the very givens that lead to the obvious conclusion are inherently flawed. Thus, the question of whether or not there is a "God" can be answered as: 1) You're kidding, right? 2) There are countless Gods, all equally real. 3) If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand. etc. If a particular set of fairy tales makes you happy, that's terrific. If you are convinced that said fairy tales give you the right to do my thinking for me, that is not so good and you may not expect my cooperation. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #48 December 10, 2004 I agree with you. I'm just highlighting that there are problems inherent in holding someone up and saying his conclusions are right about A but wrong about B. Disagreeing with half of someone's conclusion can adversely affect the weight of the remaining half. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #49 December 10, 2004 Philosophy is based on crticial analysis. That can be either rational or irrational depending on the criterium used to analyze the information. Utilizing supposition and faith as a basis of that analysis is not rational. It is assumption. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #50 December 10, 2004 Quotetheism is the basis for atheism. You've got to be a theist before you can become an atheist? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
