Gun Facts 4.0

[Kennedy 0]

Wow. Just wow.
http://www.gunfacts.info/
Gun Facts 4.0 pdf

I bet I won't have to go any farther than the PDF to rebut any and every gun-banner here in the forums.

Oh, and you anti-gun folks, give it a glance. I manage to read drivel from Brady and VPC. This won't kill you, I promise.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[AggieDave 6]

That's a very well put together document. About the only arguement that the anti-bill of rights crowd could attempt to use is that its "propaganda."

Very well thought out and presented document with good sources and good citing of the sources. Too bad the people that need to read that won't read it nor believe it, they'll live in their own little blind world, covering their ears and eyes saying "its not true its not true its not true."

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Sabre2th 0]

Pro-ban = OWNED

Nick.

Those who dance, are cosidered insane by those who can't hear the music.

[TypicalFish 0]

Interesting and well put-together document, thanks for the post. I would urge anyone on either side of the argument to read it.

I do have a question, though; something that intrigues me. I support gun ownership rights (though my reasons are primarily constitutionally based, as opposed to having some great love of firearms; quite frankly I consider them more of a necessary evil than anything else), but want to pose the question:

If guns are so great, no real threat, and, in fact, HELP to deter crime, why is there such a fear that they will be banned? Won't the "calmer" heads of the citizens of this country never allow something like that to happen? Especially given all of the "evidence"? And that also begs the question, again, if guns are such a wonderful thing to have around, how did all of these laws get passed to limit their availability, even in the face of it being a guaranteed constitutional right? What reasoning can be powerful enough for passing laws that limit a right spelled out in the SECOND ammendment of the constitution? Have we all just been the victims of an age-old anti-gun conspiracy? Or is there a nugget of reason in the arguments?

Just curious on people's take on it...

"I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET

[miked10270 0]

A good read. Very interesting.

But just to pick

"CCW Permit Holders are less likely to commit crime." I'd suggest that CCW Permit holders do not become more law abiding by gaining a CCW Permit... CCW Permit Holders have been positively vetted and would tend to comefrom the more responsible & law abiding parts of the community.

In other words, I'd feel safer in the company of CCW Permit Holders whether tey were carrying or not.

Also, I am a bit confused about how the authors claim the UK records crime statisitcs... We do record "undetected" crimes. That's why we have a detection rate of less than 100% (but don't tell the politicians that this is why or they'll change it!!!).

As I've said before, the real trick would be to seperate the guns from the idiots.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Sabre2th 0]

I, to this day, do not understand how banning guns will keep criminals from getting, and using them...

Someone please explain

Nick.

Those who dance, are cosidered insane by those who can't hear the music.

[Kennedy 0]

If I knew the answer to your question maybe I could do something about it. I really can't understand it sometimes. I have some partial answers, though.

(1) I belive 85% of the population is apathetic towards any given issue before the government, even when it affects them directly. Even when most of the 85% think one way, they rarely act in concert. Thus "calmer heads" are rarely involved in any debate about government actions. It's only the people who care very strongly one way or the other.

(2) Government always wants to "do something." Generally, when reacting to a traagedy or string of problems, more government power and less freedom is the tendency.

(3) I really don't know why DGUs (Defensive Gun Uses) are never reported. There are so many of them, but all we ever see are murder stories and such. ntentionally misleading reporting does happen as well, but I've only ever seen or heard of it going one way. (the broward co sheriff with the AK and cinder block; the officer with a .223 and a watermelon, then using him handgun to make it explode, spliced; etc)

(4) "A lie can travel half way round the world while the truth is putting on it's shoes."

edit: spelling

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[Kennedy 0]

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I, to this day, do not understand how banning guns will keep criminals from getting, and using them...

Someone please explain

It won't. No prohibition on a desired item has ever stopped it's importation/production and distrobution. Anywhere.

Jews had guns in the Warsaw ghetto, Chicago had flowing liquor in the 1920s, criminal still have handguns in Britain, and we still have drugs in America today.

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[Sabre2th 0]

Thats what I thought, but I wanted to hear someone pro-ban to give me a reason to their madness

Nick.

Those who dance, are cosidered insane by those who can't hear the music.

[Ron 7]

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If guns are so great, no real threat, and, in fact, HELP to deter crime, why is there such a fear that they will be banned?

Because people who are trying to protect people go over board and don't think. There was one poster on here that said that he wished a company would go bankrupt before it laid off people....That is emotion not logic talking.

To many people let emotions make the choices, they don't look at facts.

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Won't the "calmer" heads of the citizens of this country never allow something like that to happen?

The politicians will do what they think will make them popular and get them elected. "Common Sense" and "Facts" do not play into that.

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Especially given all of the "evidence"?

Only if they look at it with an open mind. It is way to easy to discredit what you don't want to believe.

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And that also begs the question, again, if guns are such a wonderful thing to have around, how did all of these laws get passed to limit their availability, even in the face of it being a guaranteed constitutional right?

Fear. And people using that fear to try and get power.

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What reasoning can be powerful enough for passing laws that limit a right spelled out in the SECOND ammendment of the constitution?

Fear and emotions.

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Have we all just been the victims of an age-old anti-gun conspiracy? Or is there a nugget of reason in the arguments?

If you have a friend die in a violent attack where the attacker used a gun...Some people will assume that without the gun it would not have happend. Instead of blaming the criminal, they want to blame the tool the criminal used.

In truth more people die from blunt force tramma in a violent attack than gunshot...But a bat does not have the same "fear factor" as a gun. And a person could do more damage with a shotgun than a handgun....But handguns are "Evil".

Its all emotions, not logic.

I could not care what the "facts" are....It is in our Constitution that we may keep and bear arms.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkyDekker 1,147]

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If you have a friend die in a violent attack where the attacker used a gun...Some people will assume that without the gun it would not have happend.

And the pro-gun crowd assumes it would still have happened. Eitehr side is an opinion based on assumptions because there is no way of truly knowing one way or the other.

[Kennedy 0]

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And the pro-gun crowd assumes it would still have happened. Eitehr side is an opinion based on assumptions because there is no way of truly knowing one way or the other.

There is plenty of evidence that bludgeonings and stabbings have gone up in the UK since they outlawed handguns.

(of course, shootings still happen, too, gun ban or no)

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[Sabre2th 0]

Yeah, its easy to ban and remove all weapons from law abiding citizens.
Criminals on the other hand......

Cocaine is illeagal, yet people still have and use it.

Nick.

Those who dance, are cosidered insane by those who can't hear the music.

[SkyDekker 1,147]

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There is plenty of evidence that bludgeonings and stabbings have gone up in the UK since they outlawed handguns.

I don't dispute that. But how do you prove that the increase of those crimes is due solely to the gun ban?

[mr2mk1g 10]

I'd place myself on neither side of the gun debate... or on both sides... or - ah whatever. I'm in a group of my own.

Not a bad article, I wouldn't argue in the slightest with 95% it. A couple of its conclusions are a little abrupt mind. Posters above are right though – its partiality really will come under attack if it's ever subject to scrutiny.

I do find it a little odd that it continually cites newspapers rather than the government study on which the newspaper is reporting. That really is strange... why not just go straight to the official report?

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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(3) I really don't know why DGUs (Defensive Gun Uses) are never reported.

Most defensive gun uses stop at brandishing.

I'm going to tell the police "a criminal broke-in and then left" not "a criminal left when I showed him my gun" because I don't want to be charged with brandishing, unsafe storage, illegal posession of a handgun, or whatever other charges an anti-gun prosecutor wants to file because even if I'm innocent I'll be paying my lawer $200/hour to defend me.

Where there's insufficient evidence to prosecute "A blond male road rager in a blue car started coming after me but stopped when I pulled my gun" reporting the crime isn't going to help while not reporting will be less likely to cause me trouble.

[Ron 7]

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And the pro-gun crowd assumes it would still have happened. Eitehr side is an opinion based on assumptions because there is no way of truly knowing one way or the other.

If someone wants to hurt someone they can find a tool to do it.

I can have a gun in my hand and not feel the need to use it on someone.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[quade 3]

The figures in this quote were valid at the time it was published February 7, 2001. I doubt much has changed since then.

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"If you combine the populations of Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Australia, you'll get a population roughly the size of the United States. We had 32,000 gun deaths last year. They had 112. Do you think it's because Americans are more homicidal by nature? Or do you think it's because those guys have gun control laws?"

Is there anything in the Gun Facts 4.0 pdf that addresses this disparity or phenomenon?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[AggieDave 6]

Hell, I have two loaded handguns on my desk right this very instant and I have no desire to shoot anyone, rob anything or kill anything.

I've got a funny story about my soon to be mother-in-law coming over to the house to visit Morgan. Well, long sotry short, I had left one of my handguns with Morgan for her protection and had one one me while running around town paying bills. Oh well, its a funny story to be told sometime, hopefully in person over a couple of beers.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AggieDave 6]

I think it has to do with the overall culture of the people, not the laws, guns, sticks, knives or anything else.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Kennedy 0]

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"If you combine the populations of Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Australia, you'll get a population roughly the size of the United States. We had 32,000 gun deaths last year. They had 112. Do you think it's because Americans are more homicidal by nature? Or do you think it's because those guys have gun control laws?"

TO my knowledge, nothing in the PDF answers that, but I can do it myself.

That only addresses gun deaths. Ridiculous. FIrst off, cut the nubmer for America in half. Why? More than half were suicides. Hardly relevant when talking about homicide, don't you think?

Second, why limit it only to gun homicides. Are they somehow worse than other homicides?

Why don't you go back to teh statistics for those countries and tell me how many homicides they had. All homicides. Then compare that number to the 16,000 or so for the US.

With those numbers in hand maybe then we can address the sociological issues concerning whether or not Americans are more homicidally inclined than people elsewhere.

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Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[christelsabine 1]

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Hell, I have two loaded handguns on my desk right this very instant and I have no desire to shoot anyone, rob anything or kill anything.

I've got a funny story about my soon to be mother-in-law coming over to the house to visit Morgan. Well, long sotry short, I had left one of my handguns with Morgan for her protection and had one one me while running around town paying bills. Oh well, its a funny story to be told sometime, hopefully in person over a couple of beers.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Heaven, loaded handguns, 2 of them, in - no: on! - your desk, in your office/company/shop/whatsoever?

Where on earth do your work? In St. Quentin?
A sheriffs's office? Security?



I never needed a loaded hand gun to pay my bills. Mainly, I do that online.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[AggieDave 6]

I'm at my house. Went to class then came home...trying to decide if I should write a history paper now and goof off tonight or write it tonight and go ride a a couple hundred miles on my motorcycle while the weather is good.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[SkyDekker 1,147]

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If someone wants to hurt someone they can find a tool to do it.

I can have a gun in my hand and not feel the need to use it on someone.

Good for you.

However, that still doesn't not make it fact that if a murder has been committed with a gun, that murder would still have taken place if a gun had not been available.

It also doesn't make the opposite fact.

It does nothing to address my opinion that both sides are opinions based on large assumptions. There are too many variables involved.

[quade 3]

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However, that still doesn't not make it fact that if a murder has been committed with a gun, that murder would still have taken place if a gun had not been available.

In crimes of passion a gun certainly makes the act of committing a murder -much- more easy; pull out the gun, aim and pull the trigger. While a crime of passion certainly is possible with another type of weapon such as a knife, usually there's going to be a struggle involved and it's going to take at least a few moments. Sure that didn't help Nichole or Ron, but OJ was fairly larger and in shape and also got a bit cut up in the process.

The gun levels the playing field quite a bit, so a situation of a small person trying to kill a larger person, failing and getting his ass whipped isn't something that needs to be taken into much consideration.

In the case of premeditated murders it probably doesn't make all that much of a difference, but for crimes of passion the use of a gun makes it -much- easier and therefore more likely.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver