Zenister 0 #26 December 2, 2004 Quote"scientific" beliefs are based on a "why not" mentality, that is why we call them "theories" they can be proven wrong too this statement shows you have some erroneous assumptions about science you should attempt to shed... 'why not' is not the question science asks... the question is "why?" science is based on observation and conjecture about those observations vs religion that is simply based on hope and faith... of course if you believe you already know the answers (as most religions do) then you no longer have any reason ask the questions... a critical error in the quest for truth.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,473 #27 December 2, 2004 >"scientific" beliefs are based on a "why not" mentality, that is why >we call them "theories" they can be proven wrong too . . . Actually, that's not a good reason to claim such theories are invalid (see a previous thread.) A theory describing gravity may be just that (and indeed it is one of the least-understood forces) but jump without a parachute and it will cause your death. Science is based on believing what you can prove; in that way it is the opposite of religion, which relies on faith (or believing in what you cannot prove.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
retreved 0 #28 December 2, 2004 Quoteof course if your referring to the christian mythos it is important to realize that their version of evil is part and parcel of their god... an all encompassing, all powerful, all knowing entity would be aware by default of the actions its creations will/would/did undertake... they were designed to do so and cannot act in any manner otherwise... Satan fell because God pushed him...therefore God is the prime source of Evil as well.... Whether you declare Christian and/or Jewish belief as mythos, in my opinion, your statement is false. God did not in fact 'push' Satan out of Heaven. Isaiah 14:12-13 "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! But you said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the North. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High,' " (emphasis mine) In this quotation of the falling of an angel from heaven - God is not the prime source of Evil. Even if He knew (and of course He did) the course of action that one angel could or would take, is it in His place to change the will or desire of one of his few chosen? Such an action on His part would completely invalidate the universal concept of freewill with which we have all been created. Freewill meaning: we have complete freedom (or will) to think, believe, and act in any way we choose based on the amount of knowledge we possess to any given situation while knowing fully the consequences that exist for each decision and action we follow. Think Bill of Rights or US Constitution here (you have freedom but don't abuse it) Lucifer was one of the top angels in the heirarchy of spiritual beings 'back in the day'. It may have been the apparent power of his position that the lot of 'lower' angels who listened to his voice of reason decided to follow his will to 'make himself like the Most High.' His will resulted in reaction; expulsion from heaven, not an action of being pushed. No one is 'pushed' into jail in American society, they are sent there (cast out of society) based on their actions judged against a standard set of rules of conduct. Some of us believe this Christian 'mythos'. Mythos to you, truth to us. Thankfully, this is an open forum and each of our opinions may be expressed freely. I have merely stated my opinion, and as his personal friend, that of Josh as well, in response. Open discussion of this response is welcome. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #29 December 2, 2004 it is absolutely true... what you fail to realize is that God was the source of that ambition, the designer of every impulse, every ideal and attitude Lucifer contained.. he fell in exactly the manner God intended him too, every characteristic of the Morning Star came directly from his Creator.... he could act in no other way than the manner he was created... once again we are back to the same tired argument... freewill or predestination... omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent or not... you cannot have it both ways... does the universe follow God's plan or no? Can anything in the universe act in any manner not according to that plan?? think carefully as your answers define your belief in the dogma of your religion.. do you accept your God as all powerful? All knowing? All present? as the Creator, the One, the Name? First Cause? Lucifer WAS created to fall (per the christian mythos) as was Eve, and Adam was designed to follow her, to place his love and trust for her above his fear of retribution by God..... there was never any choice in the matter unless you are willing to accept that the 3 O's do not apply and that there is no plan... If Lucifer had been created to ‘play nice’ and obedient mankind would not have ‘fallen’ either…the entire chain was designed so that humanity could be redeemed by a divine 'sacrifice'…and every thread must play its part or the weave falls apart… according to your faith NOTHING exists that is outside of Gods will, Gods plan... including every 'evil' action perpetrated by the ‘enemy’ he created for himself... attempting to compare any of this discussion to mortal matters is silly… the Constitution is not the Prime Mover…it in no way affects anyone’s life except that they agree to its provisions… the same can hardly be said of God or of Creation.. btw they are ALL myths, whether you believe in them or not…pay close attention to the first entry so we can get beyond the offense believers assume when they misunderstand the terms.... Quote myth P Pronunciation Key (m th) n. 1. a. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth. b. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth. 2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia. 3. A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology. A fictitious story, person, or thing: “German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth” (Leon Wolff). ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeteH 0 #30 December 2, 2004 Evil only exists in our imagination. Concepts of good/evil are only opinions and they change in time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
josheezammit 0 #31 December 2, 2004 QuoteQuote"scientific" beliefs are based on a "why not" mentality, that is why we call them "theories" they can be proven wrong too this statement shows you have some erroneous assumptions about science you should attempt to shed... 'why not' is not the question science asks... the question is "why?" Quotescience is based on observation and conjecture about those observations vs religion that is simply based on hope and faith... of course if you believe you already know the answers (as most religions do) then you no longer have any reason ask the questions... a critical error in the quest for truth I am still seeking anwsers too, I do not have all the answers, but you are wrong to say that faith is something that is based solely on faith and hope, its also based on the history of christianity and what we know has happened. Ahh, what a wonderful world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites josheezammit 0 #32 December 2, 2004 it is absolutely true... what you fail to realize is that God was the source of that ambition, the designer of every impulse, every ideal and attitude Lucifer contained.. he fell in exactly the manner God intended him too, God gives us all freedom of choice, that is why lucifer fell, he choose to, God did not make him hate Ahh, what a wonderful world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #33 December 2, 2004 Quoteyou are wrong to say that faith is something that is based solely on faith and hope, its also based on the history of christianity and what we know has happened. What you believe has happened. That history itself is based on your faith and hope. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,279 #34 December 2, 2004 QuoteNew and old testament, evil that lies and influences you to do the wrong thing. This statement is what I'm most interested in here. Specifically, how personal responsibility fits with the concept of a sentient, tempting evil. Do people do things because they are bad, or because they weren't strong enough to resist an evil force? There may have been no intention to do evil until the voice whispers in their head. In that case how would they be judged in the end, should the lack of strength to resist a powerful influnce lead to damnation?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites josheezammit 0 #35 December 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteNew and old testament, evil that lies and influences you to do the wrong thing. This statement is what I'm most interested in here. Specifically, how personal responsibility fits with the concept of a sentient, tempting evil. Do people do things because they are bad, or because they weren't strong enough to resist an evil force? There may have been no intention to do evil until the voice whispers in their head. In that case how would they be judged in the end, should the lack of strength to resist a powerful influnce lead to damnation? we all have choices, our lives are just like our skydiving, our own responsibility. Ahh, what a wonderful world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites josheezammit 0 #36 December 2, 2004 y'all I just wanted to thank you for talking to me about this right now, I appreciate the degree of respect y'all have been showing, i really appreciate it. Ahh, what a wonderful world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,171 #37 December 2, 2004 Excellent post. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #38 December 2, 2004 If there is no true evil, that would also mean that the other side of the coin, goodness, could not exist either. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #39 December 2, 2004 Quoteit is absolutely true... what you fail to realize is that God was the source of that ambition, the designer of every impulse, every ideal and attitude Lucifer contained.. he fell in exactly the manner God intended him too, God gives us all freedom of choice, that is why lucifer fell, he choose to, God did not make him hate for your statement to be true there can be no Plan... it would fall apart the first time one link in the chain decided to do something other than the path God intended for him... does that mean the christian God is no longer O3?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #40 December 2, 2004 QuoteIf there is no true evil, that would also mean that the other side of the coin, goodness, could not exist either. absolute true Good? without flaw or imperfection? soes not exist either... many things that are good for some would be evil for others... Good and Evil are relative and circumstantial. but what many fail to grasp is the universe is more than any two sided system could ever describe...particularly on moral issues such as Good and Evil...but if your trying to fit it into nice little catagories I'd say the Hindu's have it closer to reality... there is no Good or Evil.. there are degrees of Order and Chaos...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StevePhelps 0 #41 December 2, 2004 Why? Light exist -- darkness doesn't, it is only "less light". In that same vein why can't goodness exist, and evil as "less than good"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #42 December 2, 2004 I think their is Evil. I think any act that is done only to hurt or cause physical or emotional pain is evil. There are many things that I believe in that I don’t have scientific proof for.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites josheezammit 0 #43 December 2, 2004 Quote for your statement to be true there can be no Plan... it would fall apart the first time one link in the chain decided to do something other than the path God intended for him... does that mean the christian God is no longer O3 no he still is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, and I am sure that he knew being God that it was very possible for all of us to fall, including that angel, the freedom of choice is a very powerful thing, some people choose to help others with it, others choose to kill with it. Zen, I understand you have a lot of questions and unfortunately C.S. Lewis ain't around any more but I asked a very wise older pastor about this with great thought and consideration he came back to me and said this: "Luther (Martin luther, we quote him all the time we are Lutheran's) often spoke of the dark areas of theology which we could not answer but just had to accept. Matters about Lucifer, Adam and Eve, etc, much of that would fall into that category. I agree with St. Anselm: I understand because I believe, not as the world thinks: I believe because I understand. Let’s face it somethings are very hard to understand we just have to accept them. But the alternative, is too horrible to contemplate. Hope this helps. I write as a parish pastor not a great thinker, philosopher, or theologian. Pastor DeVries" Zen there are things that I can never explain to you, there are things that no man can ever explain, you are very wise to look for answers I cannot say that I do not question things, I am a sinner after all, but I know this that I have nothing to lose through my faith, hopes, beliefs, etc. I understand because I believe, and on that I cannot bend. I appreciate so much your sharing your thoughts on this matter and hope that my words have helped you in some way. and I want you to know that i respect were you are coming from, I once stood there myself. Ahh, what a wonderful world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #44 December 3, 2004 i've read everything C.S Lewis has ever published, and have most of them on the shelves behind me..... despite his abilities as a writer, he doesnt have any better answers for the fundamental contradictions inherent to the christian mythos, than you have repeated here. i'm sorry but "God only knows" is not an answer, it is a cop out, a non answer designed for children i.e. "because I said so..." the next question you should ask for your poll is: of those who believe in a supreme evil, where do you believe it came from if not from God? and if it does not originate with God, how can you claim he still is O3? i'd say i've been where you are.. till the light of reason revealed the darkness and inherent uncertainty christianity was trying to get me to accept on faith...cant explain it? just claim its God's will... as if that answers anything... might as well claim the trees are sneezing to create the wind...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites josheezammit 0 #45 December 3, 2004 have you ever had a tragedy in your Life Zen? Ahh, what a wonderful world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites br0k3n 0 #46 December 3, 2004 Quotethanks kev, not to be too bold and you can tell me to shut the f up, but why don't you believe in supernatural forces? I agree with Kev, and because todate there is not a single shred of authentic evidence that proves otherwise... Yes there is lots of bunk science, and claims of the supernatural, but still not a shred ot real evidence... if there is point me to it, show me and i will believe... "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites br0k3n 0 #47 December 3, 2004 Quote I am still seeking anwsers too, I do not have all the answers, but you are wrong to say that faith is something that is based solely on faith and hope, its also based on the history of christianity and what we know has happened. ermm no, religion, and that is ALL religion is based on Blind Faith... QuoteWhat we know has happened And what is that exactly? there is only what we think has happened? It has to make you think that in this day and age, we have dug up bones from animals billions of years old, we have artifacts from every period of history, yet nothing that can be linked to the bible? there in not a shred of evivdence that proves the theory of jesus or christianity... has to make you wonder----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #48 December 3, 2004 Quotehave you ever had a tragedy in your Life Zen? far to much... its one of the reasons i still look for better answers instead of settling for religious platitudes... dont get me wrong i understand the social support structure offered by 'the church' (of your choice) and why many people cling to it in times of trouble, but that is a social phenomenon.. you can find the exact same kind of support without all the "its God's will" or "she's in a better place" cliches, in any tightly knit group.... just look at a dropzone.. or even the support offered here when one of our members suffers a loss or tragedy... that is human nature, not divine guidance... the desire to believe and the emotional eagerness to accept any form of consolation during those times doesnt make any of the dogma the church exposes any more believable...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites josheezammit 0 #49 December 3, 2004 ok, thanks dude Ahh, what a wonderful world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SpeedRacer 1 #50 December 3, 2004 Here are my opinions: I am a Christian. I believe that evil does exist, that God has given us free will. After God gives us free will, it means that he no longer is holding the reins. We were given all the tools of free thought, now it is up to us. This is hard to grasp, because one might argue, OK, if God made us, and if God is supposed to be entirely good, why would God make something that has the potential to do evil? If God did, than that evil must come from God. Not necessarily. The human mind and our human lives were given to us as ggifts, now we are holding the steering wheel. You can build a flawless automobile, but that doesn't mean that after you sell it to a customer, he won't crash it through his own carelessness. ---- No I don't believe that a destructive hurricane/tornado/virus etc. are examples of evil, since there is no free will behind such things. We live in a world of sometimes dangerous physical forces. ----- Setting aside all the religious/metaphysical stuff, I have witnessed evil. There are people out there who take absolute delight in causing others pain and fear. That evil is very real to me. On a more subtle level, people will indulge in vices or immerse themselves in endless cycles of hatred, rage, and vengeance, which perpetuate human suffering, even though they could choose to take the spiritual high road and end the cycles of suffering. But if you've suffered a lot yourself, it can necessitate a HUGE spiritual effort to overcome your own tendencies toward evil. ------ This ties in with the idea of evil as an entity, which people might personify as the devil, or Satan, etc. I'm not so sure about that, but perhaps it is useful to think of it that way. One of the things I've found in my own life is that it is very important to figure out how to "run your brain" properly. You can willfully affect your emotional state, and do the right thing during difficult times, but you have to make a conscious effort to do it. So maybe the whole evil-as-devil thing is useful as a means of consciously seperating out, as a seperate and distinct entity, that part of your mind that seems to "want" you to take the spiritually-weak, dishonorable, vengeful, or cowardly path. -- Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
josheezammit 0 #32 December 2, 2004 it is absolutely true... what you fail to realize is that God was the source of that ambition, the designer of every impulse, every ideal and attitude Lucifer contained.. he fell in exactly the manner God intended him too, God gives us all freedom of choice, that is why lucifer fell, he choose to, God did not make him hate Ahh, what a wonderful world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #33 December 2, 2004 Quoteyou are wrong to say that faith is something that is based solely on faith and hope, its also based on the history of christianity and what we know has happened. What you believe has happened. That history itself is based on your faith and hope. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,279 #34 December 2, 2004 QuoteNew and old testament, evil that lies and influences you to do the wrong thing. This statement is what I'm most interested in here. Specifically, how personal responsibility fits with the concept of a sentient, tempting evil. Do people do things because they are bad, or because they weren't strong enough to resist an evil force? There may have been no intention to do evil until the voice whispers in their head. In that case how would they be judged in the end, should the lack of strength to resist a powerful influnce lead to damnation?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
josheezammit 0 #35 December 2, 2004 QuoteQuoteNew and old testament, evil that lies and influences you to do the wrong thing. This statement is what I'm most interested in here. Specifically, how personal responsibility fits with the concept of a sentient, tempting evil. Do people do things because they are bad, or because they weren't strong enough to resist an evil force? There may have been no intention to do evil until the voice whispers in their head. In that case how would they be judged in the end, should the lack of strength to resist a powerful influnce lead to damnation? we all have choices, our lives are just like our skydiving, our own responsibility. Ahh, what a wonderful world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
josheezammit 0 #36 December 2, 2004 y'all I just wanted to thank you for talking to me about this right now, I appreciate the degree of respect y'all have been showing, i really appreciate it. Ahh, what a wonderful world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,171 #37 December 2, 2004 Excellent post. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #38 December 2, 2004 If there is no true evil, that would also mean that the other side of the coin, goodness, could not exist either. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #39 December 2, 2004 Quoteit is absolutely true... what you fail to realize is that God was the source of that ambition, the designer of every impulse, every ideal and attitude Lucifer contained.. he fell in exactly the manner God intended him too, God gives us all freedom of choice, that is why lucifer fell, he choose to, God did not make him hate for your statement to be true there can be no Plan... it would fall apart the first time one link in the chain decided to do something other than the path God intended for him... does that mean the christian God is no longer O3?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #40 December 2, 2004 QuoteIf there is no true evil, that would also mean that the other side of the coin, goodness, could not exist either. absolute true Good? without flaw or imperfection? soes not exist either... many things that are good for some would be evil for others... Good and Evil are relative and circumstantial. but what many fail to grasp is the universe is more than any two sided system could ever describe...particularly on moral issues such as Good and Evil...but if your trying to fit it into nice little catagories I'd say the Hindu's have it closer to reality... there is no Good or Evil.. there are degrees of Order and Chaos...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StevePhelps 0 #41 December 2, 2004 Why? Light exist -- darkness doesn't, it is only "less light". In that same vein why can't goodness exist, and evil as "less than good"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #42 December 2, 2004 I think their is Evil. I think any act that is done only to hurt or cause physical or emotional pain is evil. There are many things that I believe in that I don’t have scientific proof for.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
josheezammit 0 #43 December 2, 2004 Quote for your statement to be true there can be no Plan... it would fall apart the first time one link in the chain decided to do something other than the path God intended for him... does that mean the christian God is no longer O3 no he still is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, and I am sure that he knew being God that it was very possible for all of us to fall, including that angel, the freedom of choice is a very powerful thing, some people choose to help others with it, others choose to kill with it. Zen, I understand you have a lot of questions and unfortunately C.S. Lewis ain't around any more but I asked a very wise older pastor about this with great thought and consideration he came back to me and said this: "Luther (Martin luther, we quote him all the time we are Lutheran's) often spoke of the dark areas of theology which we could not answer but just had to accept. Matters about Lucifer, Adam and Eve, etc, much of that would fall into that category. I agree with St. Anselm: I understand because I believe, not as the world thinks: I believe because I understand. Let’s face it somethings are very hard to understand we just have to accept them. But the alternative, is too horrible to contemplate. Hope this helps. I write as a parish pastor not a great thinker, philosopher, or theologian. Pastor DeVries" Zen there are things that I can never explain to you, there are things that no man can ever explain, you are very wise to look for answers I cannot say that I do not question things, I am a sinner after all, but I know this that I have nothing to lose through my faith, hopes, beliefs, etc. I understand because I believe, and on that I cannot bend. I appreciate so much your sharing your thoughts on this matter and hope that my words have helped you in some way. and I want you to know that i respect were you are coming from, I once stood there myself. Ahh, what a wonderful world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #44 December 3, 2004 i've read everything C.S Lewis has ever published, and have most of them on the shelves behind me..... despite his abilities as a writer, he doesnt have any better answers for the fundamental contradictions inherent to the christian mythos, than you have repeated here. i'm sorry but "God only knows" is not an answer, it is a cop out, a non answer designed for children i.e. "because I said so..." the next question you should ask for your poll is: of those who believe in a supreme evil, where do you believe it came from if not from God? and if it does not originate with God, how can you claim he still is O3? i'd say i've been where you are.. till the light of reason revealed the darkness and inherent uncertainty christianity was trying to get me to accept on faith...cant explain it? just claim its God's will... as if that answers anything... might as well claim the trees are sneezing to create the wind...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
josheezammit 0 #45 December 3, 2004 have you ever had a tragedy in your Life Zen? Ahh, what a wonderful world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #46 December 3, 2004 Quotethanks kev, not to be too bold and you can tell me to shut the f up, but why don't you believe in supernatural forces? I agree with Kev, and because todate there is not a single shred of authentic evidence that proves otherwise... Yes there is lots of bunk science, and claims of the supernatural, but still not a shred ot real evidence... if there is point me to it, show me and i will believe... "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #47 December 3, 2004 Quote I am still seeking anwsers too, I do not have all the answers, but you are wrong to say that faith is something that is based solely on faith and hope, its also based on the history of christianity and what we know has happened. ermm no, religion, and that is ALL religion is based on Blind Faith... QuoteWhat we know has happened And what is that exactly? there is only what we think has happened? It has to make you think that in this day and age, we have dug up bones from animals billions of years old, we have artifacts from every period of history, yet nothing that can be linked to the bible? there in not a shred of evivdence that proves the theory of jesus or christianity... has to make you wonder----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #48 December 3, 2004 Quotehave you ever had a tragedy in your Life Zen? far to much... its one of the reasons i still look for better answers instead of settling for religious platitudes... dont get me wrong i understand the social support structure offered by 'the church' (of your choice) and why many people cling to it in times of trouble, but that is a social phenomenon.. you can find the exact same kind of support without all the "its God's will" or "she's in a better place" cliches, in any tightly knit group.... just look at a dropzone.. or even the support offered here when one of our members suffers a loss or tragedy... that is human nature, not divine guidance... the desire to believe and the emotional eagerness to accept any form of consolation during those times doesnt make any of the dogma the church exposes any more believable...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
josheezammit 0 #49 December 3, 2004 ok, thanks dude Ahh, what a wonderful world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #50 December 3, 2004 Here are my opinions: I am a Christian. I believe that evil does exist, that God has given us free will. After God gives us free will, it means that he no longer is holding the reins. We were given all the tools of free thought, now it is up to us. This is hard to grasp, because one might argue, OK, if God made us, and if God is supposed to be entirely good, why would God make something that has the potential to do evil? If God did, than that evil must come from God. Not necessarily. The human mind and our human lives were given to us as ggifts, now we are holding the steering wheel. You can build a flawless automobile, but that doesn't mean that after you sell it to a customer, he won't crash it through his own carelessness. ---- No I don't believe that a destructive hurricane/tornado/virus etc. are examples of evil, since there is no free will behind such things. We live in a world of sometimes dangerous physical forces. ----- Setting aside all the religious/metaphysical stuff, I have witnessed evil. There are people out there who take absolute delight in causing others pain and fear. That evil is very real to me. On a more subtle level, people will indulge in vices or immerse themselves in endless cycles of hatred, rage, and vengeance, which perpetuate human suffering, even though they could choose to take the spiritual high road and end the cycles of suffering. But if you've suffered a lot yourself, it can necessitate a HUGE spiritual effort to overcome your own tendencies toward evil. ------ This ties in with the idea of evil as an entity, which people might personify as the devil, or Satan, etc. I'm not so sure about that, but perhaps it is useful to think of it that way. One of the things I've found in my own life is that it is very important to figure out how to "run your brain" properly. You can willfully affect your emotional state, and do the right thing during difficult times, but you have to make a conscious effort to do it. So maybe the whole evil-as-devil thing is useful as a means of consciously seperating out, as a seperate and distinct entity, that part of your mind that seems to "want" you to take the spiritually-weak, dishonorable, vengeful, or cowardly path. -- Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
