Moore: "Sons of Politicians Aren't at War in Iraq"

[Guest]

Tell it to the Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee.

DYOC

mh

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[3ringheathen 0]

Ok. That's one exception.
If that's it, I think it bolsters Moore's point.

Further, the article says that Rep. Hunter was instrumental in thwarting a key Bush policy because he felt it would endanger troops.
He arrived at his conclusion based upon feedback from his son's combat experience.
-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[Guest]

I don't think it's an exception.

There has been some traffic about this topic here in SC wrt "The Draft" (tm), or more properly, "Son of Draft".

I was just pointing out that MM, in his zeal to portray lawmakers as chickenhawks, conveniently overlooks facts that contradict his own.

mh

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[SkyDekker 1,123]

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don't think it's an exception.

There has been some traffic about this topic here in SC wrt "The Draft" (tm), or more properly, "Son of Draft".

I was just pointing out that MM, in his zeal to portray lawmakers as chickenhawks, conveniently overlooks facts that contradict his own.

What is it they say again about the rule and the exception?

[billvon 2,400]

> Moore: "Sons of Politicians Aren't at War in Iraq"

He didn't say that. I think that in some people's zeal to portray Moore as a fraud, they sometimes fabricate things to make him look bad.

[Guest]

"7. It happened that among the other prefects of the troops who had been sent out in all directions to reconnoitre, Titus Manlius, the consul's son, came with his troop to the back of the enemy's camp, so near that he was scarcely distant a dart's throw from the next post. In that place were some Tusculan cavalry; they were commanded by Geminus Metius, a man distinguished among his countrymen both by birth and exploits. When he recognised the Roman cavalry, and conspicuous among them the consul's son marching at their head, (for they were all known to each other, especially the men of note,) " Romans, are ye going to wage war with the Latins and allies with a single troop. What in the interim will the consuls, what will the two consular armies be doing?" " They will be here in good time," says Manlius, " and with them will be Jupiter himself, as a witness of the treaties violated by you, who is stronger and more powerful. If we fought at the lake Regillus until you had quite enough, here also we shall so act, that a line of battle and an encounter with us may afford you no very great gratification." In reply to this, Geminus, advancing some distance from his own party, says, " Do you choose then, until that day arrives on which you are to put your armies in motion with such mighty labour, to enter the lists with me, that from the result of a contest between us both it may be seen how much a Latin excels a Roman horseman ? ' Either resentment, or shame at declining the contest, or the invincible power of fate, arouses the determined spirit of the youth. Forgetful therefore of his father's command, and the consul s edict, he is driven headlong to that contest, in which it made not much difference whether he conquered or was conquered. The other horsemen being removed to a distance as if to witness the sight, in the space of clear ground which lay between them they spurred on their horses against each other; and when they were together in fierce encounter, the spear of Manlius passed over the helmet of his antagonist, that of Metius across the neck of the other's horse. Then wheeling round their horses, when Manlius arose to repeat the blow, he fixed his javelin between the ears of his opponent's horse. When, by the pain of this wound, the horse, having raised his fore-feet on high, tossed his head with great violence, he shook off his rider, whom, when he was raising himself from the severe fall, by leaning on his spear and buckler, Manlius pierced through the throat, so that the steel passed out through the ribs, and pinned him to the earth; and having collected the spoils, he returned to his own party, and with his troop, who were exulting with joy, he proceeds to the camp, and thence to the general's tent to his father, ignorant of what awaited him, whether praise or punishment had been merited. "Father," says he, "that all may truly represent me as sprung from your blood; when challenged, I slew my adversary, and have taken from him these equestrian spoils." When the consul heard this, immediately turning away from his son, he ordered an assembly to be summoned by sound of trumpet. When these assembled in great numbers, " Since you, Titus Manlius," says he, " revering neither the consular power nor a father's majesty, have fought against the enemy out of your post contrary to our orders, and, as far as in you lay, have subverted military discipline, by which the Roman power has stood to this day, and have brought me to this necessity, that I must either forget the republic, or myself and mine; we shall expiate our own transgressions rather than the republic should sustain so serious a loss for our misdeeds. We shall be a melancholy example, but a profitable one, to the youth of future ages. As for me, both the natural affection for my children, as well as that instance of bravery which has led you astray by the false notion of honour, affects me for you. But since either the authority of consuls i3 to be established by your death, or by your forgiveness to be for ever annulled; I do not think that even you, if you have any of our blood in you, will refuse to restore, by your punishment, the military discipline which has been subverted by your misconduct. Go, lictor, bind him to the stake. All became motionless, more through fear than discipline, astounded by so cruel an order, each looking on the axe as if drawn against himself. Therefore when they stood in profound silence, suddenly, when the blood spouted from his severed neck, their minds recovering as it were, from a state of stupefaction, then their voices arose together in free expressions of complaint, so that they spared neither lamentations nor execrations: and the body of the youth being covered with the spoils, was burned on a pile erected out aide-the rampart, with all the military zeal with which any funeral could be celebrated: and Manlian orders were considered with horror, not only for the present, but of the most austere severity for future times.

8. The severity of the punishment however rendered the soldiers more obedient to the general; and besides. that-the guards and watches and the regulation of the posts were every where more strictly attended to, such severity was also profitable in. the final struggle when they came into the field of battle. But the battle was very like to a civil war; so very similar was every thing among the Romans and Latins, except with respect to courage."

-- Livy

[billvon 2,400]

Milo carefully said nothing when Major—de Coverley stepped into the mess hall with his fierce and austere dignity the day he returned and found his way blocked by a wall of officers waiting in line to sign loyalty oaths. At the far end of the food counter, a group of men who had arrived earlier were pledging allegiance to the flag, with trays of food balanced in one hand, in order to be allowed to take seats at the table. Already at the tables, a group that had arrived still earlier was singing ‘The Star-Spangled Banner’ in order that they might use the salt and pepper and ketchup there. The hubbub began to subside slowly as Major—de Coverley paused in the doorway with a frown of puzzled disapproval, as though viewing something bizarre. He started forward in a straight line, and the wall of officers before him parted like the Red Sea. Glancing neither left nor right, he strode indomitably up to the steam counter and, in a clear, full-bodied voice that was gruff with age and resonant with ancient eminence and authority, said: ‘Gimme eat.’ Instead of eat, Corporal Snark gave Major—de Coverley a loyalty oath to sign. Major—de Coverley swept it away with mighty displeasure the moment he recognized what it was, his good eye flaring up blindingly with fiery disdain and his enormous old corrugated face darkening in mountainous wrath.

‘Gimme eat, I said,’ he ordered loudly in harsh tones that rumbled ominously through the silent tent like claps of distant thunder.

Corporal Snark turned pale and began to tremble. He glanced toward Milo pleadingly for guidance. For several terrible seconds there was not a sound. Then Milo nodded.

‘Give him eat,’ he said.

Corporal Snark began giving Major—de Coverley eat. Major—de Coverley turned from the counter with his tray full and came to a stop. His eyes fell on the groups of other officers gazing at him in mute appeal, and, with righteous belligerence, he roared: ‘Give everybody eat!’

‘Give everybody eat!’ Milo echoed with joyful relief, and the Glorious Loyalty Oath Crusade came to an end.

[tunaplanet 0]

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they sometimes fabricate things to make him look bad.

No need to. He does that on his own. Your boy is a fraud.

Forty-two

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Ok. That's one exception.
If that's it, I think it bolsters Moore's point.

Okay, well, Rush Limbaugh today said that Chicago Mayor Richard Daley's son is turning down lucrative private sector jobs to enlist in the army because he thinks it's his duty. Yes, that Daley, the liberal police-statist corrupt shitbag (who closed down and destroyed Meigs Field in the dark of night). His son is enlisting.

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Guest]

"Want pie now."



Your quote was from a work of fiction, mine was from a Roman historian.

(BTW-I found Heller's book to be a completely disjointed read that really didn't make a lot of sense, but then I guess it wasn't meant to...)

mh

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[Zenister 0]

I'm sure your well read enough to be aware that Livy was not present at that battle some 300 years before he was born and in addition was well known to take artistic license and endow his historical figures with the traits he believed essential to the roman character...

there is as much fiction and propaganda in Livy as there is history.. the events may have occurred more or less as he records them however the actual words and motivations he ascribes to them are historically suspect...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[billvon 2,400]

>Your quote was from a work of fiction, mine was from a Roman historian.

Ah, but mine is required reading at West Point!

I thought Catch-22 was a masterpiece of satire in the same way Brazil or The Meaning of Life was, and takes on the subject of practical military philosophy in a more playful way than Once an Eagle did.

[JohnRich 4]

Had a thought today...

The democrats are a-bitchin' about the Intelligence Reform Bill being slow-tracked rather than rushed into law.

The democrats also, like the title of this thread says, imply that the war is wrong because the sons of the politicians aren't fighting in it. And the corollary of that is, that if their sons were fighting in it, they would deserve respect.

Now the fun part:

Representative Duncan Hunter is one of the main people slowing down the Intel reform Bill, because he's worried about a few provisions. Why is he worried about it? Because his son is a Marine artillery officer who has served in Iraq, who expresses misgivings about Intelligence control being taken away from the Pentagon.

So, since the dems think that politicians with sons fighting in the war should be the ones to whom we pay attention, then why are the dems not in *favor* of what Rep. Hunter is doing?

[Guest]

I agree that there is some drama present in Livy's remarks (being the imperial shill that he was), but like you, I don't think he made up that incident.

mh

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