peacefuljeffrey 0 #26 November 20, 2004 QuoteIt's all a question of definition, "what is a right"? Does it hurt my rights if someone spouts racist hatred publicly. Yes it does: He wants to take away civil rights of a minority . No. Only in the loosest, most flippant sense is this any kind of infringement on your "rights." You are describing the criminalization of a person's WANTS, even when he has stopped short of ACTUALLY taking away anyone's civil rights. The notion of this is SICK. QuoteDoes it hurt my rights if someone gives me the finger on the highway? Yes it does: It's an insult. You have a "right" to not ever be insulted by anyone?! QuoteTry it: Go tell your boss he's an a$§h0le. How much would that be worth in a lawsuit? Um, are you saying that if you call your boss an asshole, he's entitled to sue you for insulting him? Sure, he'll fire you, but he doesn't have the ability to sue for that. I could call every person I meet on the street an asshole, and they have nothing to sue me for. I might eventually get picked up for disturbing the peace or something, but I can't be sued civilly by those people. You seem to be quite confused about things like this, and I wonder where you are getting this information. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #27 November 20, 2004 QuoteIf someone is presenting his middle finger to me, I really would like to give him back my five, just in the middle of his cheek. But, what would that cost? Are you admitting that someone making an insulting gesture that does you no physical harm makes you want to physically attack him; and you refrain only because it would cost you a fine? -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #28 November 20, 2004 QuoteThere are many Western democracies with restrictions on certain ideologies. Communism is not really welcome in the US. Excuse me, but there is an AMERICAN COMMUNIST PARTY and apart from being despised by most Americans, and risking their livelihood, perhaps, by alienating those who might otherwise associate with them, they are free to exist; solicit membership; produce and distribute literature; publish advertisements; write letters to newspapers and magazines... So what is your point? You can't compare our laws on freedom of thought, expression, association, and the press, to other countries like Germany. Sorry, in that sense, we're a lot more free -- and trusted. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #29 November 20, 2004 Hurumph, hurumph. Well said PJ. On all of your replys.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #30 November 20, 2004 Quote Are you admitting that someone making an insulting gesture that does you no physical harm makes you want to physically attack him; and you refrain only because it would cost you a fine? -Jeffrey Oh yeah, one fine brawl every day keeps the stress away I would make a perfect street fighter somewhere in NY downtown dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #31 November 20, 2004 Quote PS: ChristelSabine... Where's my jokes!!? Factory holidays - Your inquiry will be the first to be handled upon return of staff - Please be patient, thank you ! That lazy German worker pack is more in holidays than at their firm desk and always on the Autobahn, making rude gestures to each other dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #32 November 20, 2004 QuoteSo what is your point? You can't compare our laws on freedom of thought, expression, association, and the press, to other countries like Germany. Sorry, in that sense, we're a lot more free -- and trusted I've seen naked bodies and even...BOOBIES at prime time on European TV! "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #33 November 20, 2004 Quote And all you other pen nuts out there... What's your favourite pen? Mine is the Fischer Space Pen with the collapsible barrel. Compact, reliable and effective! Sounds not bad. If it's quick enough in your hands, always ready to write: Perfect choice. But, to really scare tough nuts, it will need an impressive Lamy with diamond tip (not a soft tip!). Just my personal experience. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #34 November 20, 2004 QuoteSo what is your point? You can't compare our laws on freedom of thought, expression, association, and the press, to other countries like Germany. Sorry, in that sense, we're a lot more free -- and trusted. -Jeffrey BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #35 November 20, 2004 Quote... need an impressive Lamy with diamond tip (not a soft tip!). I've got the Lamy M21 for precision target writing... But for all-weather, general "street" use I prefer the German licensed version of the Fischer. this makes sure that I can use it to write the ticket regardless of weather conditions and paper. Plus it's more compact and faster in use. I was thinking of fitting a laser designator to the Fischer for greater accuracy on the speeding tickets... What do you think? WHERE'S MY JOKES!!!??? Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #36 November 20, 2004 Quote I've got the Lamy M21 for precision target writing... But for all-weather, general "street" use I prefer the German licensed version of the Fischer. this makes sure that I can use it to write the ticket regardless of weather conditions and paper. Plus it's more compact and faster in use. I was thinking of fitting a laser designator to the Fischer for greater accuracy on the speeding tickets... What do you think? Yep. I think you have a higher standard than we ever had. What an equipment! Well, I think I have to apply on better pens quickly. A "laser", greater accuracy.. guy, you are a freak! That will need money to be spent by government. QuoteWHERE'S MY JOKES!!!??? OK. Just found a dump one: "If Powell was Bush's poodle, Condi is his pitbull" Bwahaha Next: After last nights desaster, Cameroon is looking for a new chief: A good chance to get rid of Berti Vogts OK, Ok, OK... not what I promised in regards of Brits/Germans, but: Like explained before: Your inquiry.....will be handled.... Gimme a break, guy, it will come! dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Falko 0 #37 November 21, 2004 QuoteOkay, SAYING something is illegal under German law. Not an incitement to riot, nor "yelling fire in a crowded theater"... Good example: The "incitement to riot" is one of the very few things that are illegal to promote in public. Yes, I don't see a problem with that. QuoteSimply voicing that your opinion is that you would like, say, Muslims deported, or that you want a monarch or autocrat to run the country... this is a crime. "Simply"? You don't find it outrageous if someone demands publicly that a minorities civil rights be taken away? If someone publicly calls for a criminal act, they aide the act which will most probably follow later. Those who then conduct the act are being prosecuted for it, that's normal. And those who promoted it publicly are being charged for "aiding" a criminal act. AFAIK it's the same in the US, correct me there? Or can you stand on a stage and publicly request that every white man please take a club and bash the next black mans head in? How long until you would get arrested? Oh duh I forgot it's all freedom of speech. And since you only SAID something, how can that be illegal? QuoteThe notion of it is abhorrent to me. Good to know your priorities. QuoteIf these positions are so weak, so wrong, why can't German society open up discourse and expose them as being so? German society has opened up discourse back in the year 1945, to be exact, and later in 1949 when the Federal Republic of Germany was founded by passing the constitution. Since then the discussion is being held each day, everywhere. QuoteIs it so dangerous to trust Germans with freedom? What a ridiculous statement. Hey in case you haven't noticed: We are a free people, enjoying the same human and civil rights as you. And the laws that are active in this country have been passed "by the people for the people". The US and german system differ less than you might think. You give the impression as if we have a "speech policing", only because we have these very few restrictions of what you may say in public: - No signs and symbols of the Third Reich - No denial of the Holocaust - No promotion of discrimination - No promotion of a totalitarian system. Personally I feel no restriction of my freedom of speech by that. But that's just me. QuoteQuoteThe display of signs and symbols of the Third Reich is also forbidden. You also may not deny that the Holocaust took place. Nope -- 'cause that would be thoughtcrime, and we can't have that! One may think all they want. That's not illegal. Paint all your walls with Swastikas, noone cares. What is illegal is promoting these symbols publicly! The german people wanted it this way. If you feel your freedom of speech is too much restricted because of that, then you have to go somewhere else. Given the german history I find that understandable. In the strictest sense, it is a restriction of your freedom of speech. Too bad noone in germany perceives it as such... except very few shitheads whose degenerated brain can hardly manage to speak at all anyway. Quote"Germany" is not comfortable with letting Germans speak and discuss all manner of socio-political realities. I repeat: It's being discussed every day. QuoteThis indicates a weakness: a failure to put faith in the ability of the good people of society to overcome, through rational discourse, the irrational and evil and fascist fringes of that society. Back in 1949 you might have been right, there was a fear that germany would at some point in the future return to a fascist system. But that fear has long been overcome. Welcome to the present. QuoteIf there was faith in the good elements of German society, there would be no fear that neo-nazis could begin to flourish there again if you didn't clamp down on anything they might have to say. If there is any fear of that today or has been in the last decades, it was in other countries who still didn't trust the germans. (You know, most germans are still nazis, or at least evil to the bone, yes it's true I've seen it in the movies. They always play the bad guys. ) The german people themselves are far beyond any doubt that there ever will be neonazis back in power. There's just no fucking way. But not because a law prevents it, or because we may not display Swastikas publicly any more... but because we've "been there, done it, and we know it sucks!" Hey I found my sense of humor again. Oh doh, Germans don't have that. And we don't "clamp down on anything they might have to say". Like I said before, right wing parties get their fair share of speech time in a parliament. But they have to mind their choice of words. A simple "We want all jews and turks deported" wouldn't do it. The right wing whackos have to acknowledge a minorities rights in their political speeches nowadays. Oh damn what a censorship that is! QuoteFace it, Germany has criminalized certain thought. A thought can not be criminalized. But "we" have criminalized a political system that almost killed whole races and peoples, including our "own". Notice the quotation marks... I don't really identify myself with germany or countries in general that much. If I had to categorize myself in terms of a nationality, I'd consider myself a European more than I'm "german". (Am half dutch anyway) But I digress... QuoteNo, I have not made a study of Germany or its laws. Even if all I knew was what you wrote above, it would be enough to make me abhor the system you have set up there. By the way "you" as the US helped to set it up. Thanks for that by the way. We believe it works well! QuoteSuppression of thought and of political speech is wrong. It sure is, but like I said above, thought is not suppressed nor is political speech. Of course if you find any regulative law there is whatsoever to be a "suppression", you're right by definition. I wonder how many laws you have in the US that somehow restrict or "shape" your civil and human rights. Oh how suppresive that is... cheers Falko PS: There's no irony markup tag, sorry... Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Falko 0 #38 November 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteDoes it hurt my rights if someone spouts racist hatred publicly. Yes it does: He wants to take away civil rights of a minority. No. Only in the loosest, most flippant sense is this any kind of infringement on your "rights." You are describing the criminalization of a person's WANTS, even when he has stopped short of ACTUALLY taking away anyone's civil rights. The notion of this is SICK. If you consider words to be nothing, and deeds to be everything, you'd be right. If someone threatens to murder a person, they cannot be charged with murder. But they can be charged with harassment. Words are not a void! So I cannot see my argument to be "flippant" or superficial. QuoteYou have a "right" to not ever be insulted by anyone?! Yes. I thought in the US it was also possible to sue for libel and slander? QuoteUm, are you saying that if you call your boss an asshole, he's entitled to sue you for insulting him? Yes. If he can provide witnesses or other evidence. QuoteYou seem to be quite confused about things like this, and I wonder where you are getting this information. I'm not confused at all, am actually very sure about that. Either one of us two is misinformed or the US/german laws on libel suits differ greatly. Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #39 November 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteSimply voicing that your opinion is that you would like, say, Muslims deported, or that you want a monarch or autocrat to run the country... this is a crime. "Simply"? You don't find it outrageous if someone demands publicly that a minorities civil rights be taken away? I don't find the opining that rights should not be extended to some people outrageous. The withholding of rights that actually do belong to someone is not tolerable. But there is no actual harm caused by expressing the opinion that some should be denied rights. It's just an opinion. If EFFORTS are made to actively deny someone rights that do belong to them, that's punishable, sure. But I think you are going overboard in attempting to engage in prior restraint to preclude such actions. It's akin to cutting out their tongues so that they can't speak against a minority, or cutting off their hands so they can't punch a minority. The entire world is all about majorities and minorities struggling to get what they want. And some majorities keep a lookout for the rights of minorities, and some just want further self-enrichment even at the expense of minorities. The trouble is, if the majority oppresses the minority, who is around to chastise the majority for it, but they themselves?? Paradox. QuoteIf someone publicly calls for a criminal act, they aide the act which will most probably follow later. Those who then conduct the act are being prosecuted for it, that's normal. And those who promoted it publicly are being charged for "aiding" a criminal act. You have stretched the definition of "aiding" past the breaking point. If I said, "Yeah, the Unabomber had the right idea," (even if I had said it while he was alive and actively bombing), that is not "aiding" him! Besides, there is a difference between spurring others to criminal acts, "aiding" criminal acts, and simply agreeing with those acts. If I say, "Man, I really feel someone should assassinate XXXX!" that is not a crime. It is a crime if I say to someone, "I think you should assassinate XXXX. Here's how you should do it..." QuoteAFAIK it's the same in the US, correct me there? Or can you stand on a stage and publicly request that every white man please take a club and bash the next black mans head in? How long until you would get arrested? That's not the degree to which we were talking about. QuoteQuoteIs it so dangerous to trust Germans with freedom? What a ridiculous statement. Hey in case you haven't noticed: We are a free people, enjoying the same human and civil rights as you. And the laws that are active in this country have been passed "by the people for the people". Free unless you want to associate with others of a given mindset and wish to throw your hat into the political ring and see if you can get the general population to support you. No, you are restrained by certain guidelines that say, "Only persons of certain types of political pursuasions are allowed to take part in the political process. If you advocate German nationalism, you can't run on that kind of ideology." QuoteThe US and german system differ less than you might think. You give the impression as if we have a "speech policing", only because we have these very few restrictions of what you may say in public: - No signs and symbols of the Third Reich - No denial of the Holocaust - No promotion of discrimination - No promotion of a totalitarian system. I despise a totalitarian system, but freedom would dictate that each person is free to ADVOCATE it, wrong as he might be. The rest of the country would shout it down, obviously: and if it didn't, then maybe it's what the people want, and who is anyone to deny them that if it is the popular mandate? The fact that you are a criminal simply for "denying the Holocaust" is repugnant to me. I understand the admonition, "Those who don't learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it," and the dangers of Germans forgetting just exactly what they perpetrated on the world not once, but twice... But you are legislating beliefs here, and that will always be wrong, in my book. The "no signs and symbols" thing is also, to me, overboard. People here collect those things, sometimes -- and not necessarily people who are fans of Hitler or the third reich. I think that implicit in a prohibition of such items is a statement that the better nature of German people is not to be trusted, for fear of what they might do once again if they aren't watched, restricted, and kept on their best behavior. QuotePersonally I feel no restriction of my freedom of speech by that. But that's just me. Your not feeling it is not evidence that it is not there. You are just as forbidden from saying those things we mentioned above whether you feel the desire to say them or not. QuoteOne may think all they want. That's not illegal. Paint all your walls with Swastikas, noone cares. What is illegal is promoting these symbols publicly! You said signs and symbols of the third reich are forbidden! Now you say you can paint your walls with them? Are they forbidden or not? QuoteQuoteThis indicates a weakness: a failure to put faith in the ability of the good people of society to overcome, through rational discourse, the irrational and evil and fascist fringes of that society. Back in 1949 you might have been right, there was a fear that germany would at some point in the future return to a fascist system. But that fear has long been overcome. Welcome to the present. The same present in which anti-semitic crimes in France and Germany are on the rise (although stifled in the news, because no one wants much word of it to get out)? -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" 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EBSB52 0 #40 November 21, 2004 QuoteQuote WHAT?! That's the "OK" sign! Read Lucky Mike's book "Dancing on Raindrops" and you'll know what happens when you try to substitute the "thumbs up" for the "OK"... Different countries, different interpretations of hand signals. Quote Um, let's not forget that Germany is the country with the political history that they feel necessitates that they BAN certain political speech and parties... They're not comfy with the idea of people speaking what they feel and letting public discourse sort out who's right and who's wrong. Isn't it in the U.S. where your questions in a presidential debate have to be approved in advance and if you alter by even just 1 word, your microphone gets shut down? Right, or if you wear an anti-_ _ _ _ teeshirt you get yanked out of line and arrested. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #41 November 21, 2004 QuoteRight, or if you wear an anti-_ _ _ _ teeshirt you get yanked out of line and arrested. and if you wear that same T-shirt to a good restaurant, you will be refused service and if you create a scene, you will be arrested. and if a woman wears a thong at a public pool, she will likely be asked to leave. If a teenager wears the same thong to school she will likely be suspended. If you talk on your cell phone during a movie, you will be asked to leave. If you yell fire in the movie theatre, you will be arrested. Sometimes it's about common sense and appropriateness, something some people have trouble figuring out so they need someone to point it out for them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Merkur 1 #42 November 21, 2004 Quote Isn't it in the U.S. where your questions in a presidential debate have to be approved in advance and if you alter by even just 1 word, your microphone gets shut down? Right, or if you wear an anti-_ _ _ _ teeshirt you get yanked out of line and arrested. Jeffrey, if this last point is true - where is your freedom of speech? Another question: Is joining the KKK legal and are they allowed to have public demonstrations? Also, why do one get arrested if he says, someone should bomb this airport (being there) - didn't you say that this is not "aiding" the persons who actually plan it? Regarding the symbols of the Third Reich mentioned above: It is restricted - not illegal - to publicly use them while it is unrestricted to use them in privacy. For example you can use them to teach about it in school or if you do an exhibition about the time. I totally agree with your opinion that a democracy should be able to handle this last point and does not need to supress even the showing of such signs but it will probably tkae another 50 years or so, untill this is the common opinion.vSCR No.94 Don't dream your life - live your dream! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZJ 0 #43 November 21, 2004 Quote The "no signs and symbols" thing is also, to me, overboard. People here collect those things, sometimes -- and not necessarily people who are fans of Hitler or the third reich. I think that implicit in a prohibition of such items is a statement that the better nature of German people is not to be trusted, for fear of what they might do once again if they aren't watched, restricted, and kept on their best behavior.People collect Third Reich militaria and memorabilia in Germany and across Europe as well. Possession, collection and sale of such items is NOT illegal in Germany, only their display. Why does it vex you so much that a German cannot parade swastikas in the street or bedeck the outside of his home with Nazi standards? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ditch9276 0 #44 November 21, 2004 My personally opinion about showing some third reich bullshit in public is, that it have to be forbidden, how it is in Germany. Cause they're many people that can't make a desicion between the historical worth and the political sense of such things. And for second not everthing what will be a sign of the third reich is forbidden. Forbidden is the double S skull, the sunrune and the double S insignia and also the signs of the third reichs party. A few other signs are in use allready, and they are in use by any offical parts of germany. A question to all non-redskin US citizens, WE, that means the germans know about the things that where false in hinstory, the things that happens to the jewisch people was unacceptable and makes me personally really sorry about that what happens and really worry about many older people's here! But WE've understand, did you? Did you understand what was not right in the history of the us, what should the imgigrations done to them who owned the land. Until today? No excuse! Nothing at all. Sorry but I've to say it. Freedom without any restrictions = impossible And as a pen I use a montblanc masterpiece from 1976, a wunderfull thing and still with guarantee, and i never would change it! Never ever! .The only rings that are worth wearing, are those of my 3-ring-system!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ditch9276 0 #45 November 21, 2004 Another thing about showing and/or wearing signs! In 2000 while i've visited New York, I saw following situation:" A young white men, age about 18-20, was wearring a Sweat-Shirt, on it a cross wires was to see, and under it stands "Cop Killer", then the next second, two cops saw this men with his shirt, and arrested him directly." Just for this two words? Good to know! Then when i visit the us next time i'll all my A.C.A.B. (All Cops Are Bastards) Shirts at home, at home in germany, cause here I can where them legally without beeing arrested! My Opinion: Give some stupid a&%$(s a uniform and gun and they mean they'll be god! .The only rings that are worth wearing, are those of my 3-ring-system!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #46 November 21, 2004 QuoteIsn't it in the U.S. where your questions in a presidential debate have to be approved in advance and if you alter by even just 1 word, your microphone gets shut down? So a pair of politicians agreed to restrictive terms. So what? That was the format they agreed to. It's not like the government was stepping into it and forcing only certain questions. Quoteor if you wear an anti-_ _ _ _ teeshirt you get yanked out of line and arrested. How many times do I have to tell people this incident has nothing to do with free speech? This did not happen in public, but rather at a private event. People running private events can ask anyone to leave for any reason. Also, these women were not arrested for wearing the shirts. They were arrested for refusing to leave. There is no freedom of speech for guests at a private event. Would you like it if a person in your home were allowed to stay, no matter what they did, even after you asked them to leave? QuoteAnother question: Is joining the KKK legal and are they allowed to have public demonstrations? Yes to both questions. As detestable as the people and their views are, they are allowed to assemble and demonstrate. That is freedom of speech. QuoteAlso, why do one get arrested if he says, someone should bomb this airport (being there) - didn't you say that this is not "aiding" the persons who actually plan it? That is not likely to result in being arrested, but it is right on the line. Advocating illegal behavior is not legal in most cases. Freedom of speech in the US is still alive an kicking, though currently it is severely limited immediately preceeding federal elections. I agree with Jeffrey that outlawing political parties and criminalizing the expression of (even misguided) points of view in the public forum is a restriction of speech that should not be allowed to stand.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Falko 0 #47 November 22, 2004 QuoteBut there is no actual harm caused by expressing the opinion that some should be denied rights. It's just an opinion. If EFFORTS are made to actively deny someone rights that do belong to them, that's punishable, sure. Where exactly does "opinion" end and "effort" start in your book? Where to draw the line? It has to be drawn somewhere, that much is clear. Germanys interpretation of that "line" is stricter in the cases I mentioned. QuoteBut I think you are going overboard in attempting to engage in prior restraint to preclude such actions. It's akin to cutting out their tongues so that they can't speak against a minority, or cutting off their hands so they can't punch a minority. The same "restraint to preclude criminal actions" thingy is active in the US too. We can spend all night bargaining about the "level of restraint" in each of our countries, but I don't think it proves anything. QuoteThe trouble is, if the majority oppresses the minority, who is around to chastise the majority for it, but they themselves?? Paradox. That's for a different thread. QuoteBesides, there is a difference between spurring others to criminal acts, "aiding" criminal acts, and simply agreeing with those acts. I can tell the difference. But the line between "agreeing" and "spurring" is a thin one, don't you agree? It's open to interpretation, and that is what germany did, in a stricter sense than what you're maybe used to. It really doesn't make me feel I live in a less freer society. QuoteThat's not the degree to which we were talking about. Exactly: We're only talking degree here. There isn't a fundamental difference in freedom of speech between Germany and the US. We both have it, and we both have it restricted in some way. QuoteNo, you are restrained by certain guidelines that say, "Only persons of certain types of political pursuasions are allowed to take part in the political process. If you advocate German nationalism, you can't run on that kind of ideology." That statement as a whole is simply not true: - Yes, there are guidelines. Those apply mainly to form and choice of words. - No, there are no restrictions to certain political persuasions (except totalitarism), for example there are parties advocating german nationalism. There's a communist party as well etc. QuoteI despise a totalitarian system, but freedom would dictate that each person is free to ADVOCATE it, wrong as he might be. The rest of the country would shout it down, obviously: and if it didn't, then maybe it's what the people want, and who is anyone to deny them that if it is the popular mandate? Maybe the german people thought back in 1949 that "freedom would dictate" that it (the freedom) be protected in a way so that noone will ever be able to advocate a totalitarian system again. An emotional, maybe irrational thing, but hey at least that's what I call a proper popular mandate! Maybe that's their way of "shouting it down" forever. It really depends on the point of view. And if at some point the german people will favor a totalitarian system again, they would change that law. But I assure you that's not going to happen. QuoteI think that implicit in a prohibition of such items is a statement that the better nature of German people is not to be trusted, for fear of what they might do once again if they aren't watched, restricted, and kept on their best behavior. Like I said already: It was more the worry of the allies than that of the germans. IIRC they even tried to avoid that germany will ever have an own army again. QuoteYou are just as forbidden from saying those things we mentioned above whether you feel the desire to say them or not. And I'm perfectly okay with that. I'm also okay with the fact that I'm forbidden to drive drunken, kill people, steal, rape etc... QuoteYou said signs and symbols of the third reich are forbidden! Now you say you can paint your walls with them? Are they forbidden or not? What Merkur said. QuoteThe same present in which anti-semitic crimes in France and Germany are on the rise (although stifled in the news, because no one wants much word of it to get out)? Come on gimme a break: "Because no one [...]" yeah sure, uh-huh, you also believe that there's THEM, or some kind of media conspiracy preventing the news of rising anti-semitic crimes. Have you ever watched the german news? If there is even the smallest racist or anti-semitic crime, it's in the corresponding news media, regional or federal, paper or TV, whatever.... believe me, it is covered. Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse. (Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #48 November 22, 2004 QuoteI agree with Jeffrey that outlawing political parties and criminalizing the expression of (even misguided) points of view in the public forum is a restriction of speech that should not be allowed to stand. In Spain, the terrorist group ETA had till recently the armed wing which put bombs and the political wing in the form of a political party (Herri Batasuna) which not only condoned the terrorist acts but did some propaganda for the cause. They were banned from the political scene until they publicly rejected all forms of terorism. Do you honestly think that those people should be able to participate in the political live of Spain with no problems? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #49 November 22, 2004 QuoteQuote Isn't it in the U.S. where your questions in a presidential debate have to be approved in advance and if you alter by even just 1 word, your microphone gets shut down? Right, or if you wear an anti-_ _ _ _ teeshirt you get yanked out of line and arrested. Jeffrey, if this last point is true - where is your freedom of speech? There is far more context to this woman wearing the t-shirt who got "yanked out of line and arrested." For one thing, I'm not sure she was arrested. For another, she was a disruptive person wearing a shirt inappropriate for the venue with the purpose of disturbing the peace. I don't know much more about it, so someone feel free to fill us in. People are not arrested in the U.S. for simply wearing the political opponent's t-shirt, and to think it's true is naive. QuoteAnother question: Is joining the KKK legal and are they allowed to have public demonstrations? Also, why do one get arrested if he says, someone should bomb this airport (being there) - didn't you say that this is not "aiding" the persons who actually plan it? Perfectly legal, and yes, they are allowed to have public demonstrations. Did you think no and no? The rest of this, about bombing an airport, I can't even say is coherent so I don't know what you're asking. Saying that someone should do something, and helping them do it, are two radically different things. I really hope you can grasp that concept on your own, because I am not the person to help you do so if you require assistance. I've been over this already, here, and just don't have the patience for doing it again. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #50 November 22, 2004 QuotePeople collect Third Reich militaria and memorabilia in Germany and across Europe as well. Possession, collection and sale of such items is NOT illegal in Germany, only their display. Why does it vex you so much that a German cannot parade swastikas in the street or bedeck the outside of his home with Nazi standards? Because righteousness (anti-Naziism) has not truly triumphed over wickedness (for lack of a better term) if it simply squelches the voice of wickedness. For a victory over the Nazi way of thinking to be complete and true, it has to be -- HAS to be -- because Naziism and anti-Naziism "had it out" with their views in a public forum, and one trounced the other. How complete a victory would it be to convict someone of a crime if he was never allowed to mount a defense or speak or examine witnesses on his own behalf? That would be a hollow conviction. Likewise it is a hollow "victory" over Naziism to proclaim it vanquished just because you keep it suppressed. Far better to let it fail on its own lack of merit than to deny the world the opportunity to SEE that lack of merit displayed flagrantly by the very people who espouse the cause. -Jeffrey-Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
