pajarito 0 #76 October 20, 2004 QuoteNot disagreeing with you, but one wonders why things are allowed to reach the point that well trained troops disobey an order. Someone must have seen that there was a problem brewing well before it reached this point. Surely you don't believe that this is the first or only one of the few times that this type of this has ever happened in wartime. I'm quite sure that in any war, especially one of long duration, this type of thing surfaces as does other issues requiring disciplinary action. I think it’s just part of the normal course of war. It will be dealt with and we will move on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #77 October 20, 2004 Don't know how well trained these troops were. (No insult intended) As I understand it they are national guardsmen not regular troops.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #78 October 20, 2004 QuoteDon't know how well trained these troops were. (No insult intended) As I understand it they are national guardsmen not regular troops. Who knows... However, there are many National Guardsmen these days who are better trained than their active counterparts. Speaking specifically with regards to Army Special Forces. I have no idea about the type of unit mentioned here. Also, depending on how long they've been in country doing the job (6-8 months?), the lines tend to blur. Even National Guardsmen immersed in the combat environment adapt just like everyone else and become more integrated with everyone else. Even so, I still don’t find the fact that they’re National Guard or Reserve as an excuse. Once put on active duty, these people have the same responsibility to fulfill their duty as anyone else over there. They should also be punished just like anyone else who fails to do so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #79 October 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteNot disagreeing with you, but one wonders why things are allowed to reach the point that well trained troops disobey an order. Someone must have seen that there was a problem brewing well before it reached this point. Surely you don't believe that this is the first or only one of the few times that this type of this has ever happened in wartime. I'm quite sure that in any war, especially one of long duration, this type of thing surfaces as does other issues requiring disciplinary action. I think it’s just part of the normal course of war. It will be dealt with and we will move on. So you're saying this is business as usual and we shouldn't worry about it. I'm saying that if the upper echelons had been minding the store, things would not have reached this point.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #80 October 20, 2004 QuoteSo you're saying this is business as usual and we shouldn't worry about it. I'm saying that this is an isolated incident and is not uncommon in wars of any duration. I didn't say we shouldn't worry about it. It should be handled swiftly so we can get on with business. QuoteI'm saying that if the upper echelons had been minding the store, things would not have reached this point. Let me guess... This is also ultimately Bush's fault. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #81 October 20, 2004 QuoteDon't know how well trained these troops were. (No insult intended) As I understand it they are national guardsmen not regular troops. They were in the Army reserves. The one that instigated the whole thing had been in 24 years....... For a 24 year Army veteran to take a stand like he did something must have been seriously wrong. It is my understanding that they were all reduced in rank already. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #82 October 20, 2004 Actualy I fully agree with you on this issue.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #83 October 20, 2004 Monkey see monkey do? http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/index.php?page=national&story_id=102004b1_iraq_guardWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #84 October 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteIn general a legitimate problem has been found somewhere up the chain of command. Problems that may or may not exist up the chain of command do not exonerate troops from disobeying lawful orders. There are always problems within the ranks and up the chain of command. However, there is also a battle currently being fought which must be won. You voice your complaints appropriately, pick up your rifle, move out, and draw fire. Smart way to get people killed Got a complaint go talk to the "no person". "I hear what your saying and understand your concerns" Now Charge!!!! WW1 trench warfare: charging out of trench's didn't work against machine guns but the boss says charge!!!! Oops 5,000 dead no progress on the ground.To bad there's always tomorrow Civil War: Everyone in blue lets line up in a row and march across this field . Don't worry about the guy's in grey waiting to shoot you, they might miss. Viet nam: close to the end of the war B-52 crews refused to fly a mission over Hanoi. because it was to heavily defended by SAMS. Sometimes things got bad enough where the "No man charge!!!" who didn't consider the life of his soldiers vs the value of a mission would have a accident in the field or even in the rear. Shit happens. Some Officers have their career's to consider witch to some of them is more important than the lives of their men/women. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #85 October 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteSo you're saying this is business as usual and we shouldn't worry about it. I'm saying that this is an isolated incident and is not uncommon in wars of any duration. I didn't say we shouldn't worry about it. It should be handled swiftly so we can get on with business. QuoteI'm saying that if the upper echelons had been minding the store, things would not have reached this point. Let me guess... This is also ultimately Bush's fault. Where does the buck stop?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #86 October 21, 2004 Heard this morning that the commander of this unit has been relieved due to "dereliction of duty". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penniless 0 #87 October 21, 2004 QuoteHeard this morning that the commander of this unit has been relieved due to "dereliction of duty". Link? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #88 October 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteHeard this morning that the commander of this unit has been relieved due to "dereliction of duty". Link? To my ear? I heard it on fox news while I was making breakfast. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #89 October 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteHeard this morning that the commander of this unit has been relieved due to "dereliction of duty". Link? LINK Done at her own request.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #90 October 21, 2004 QuoteDone at her own request. Not according to this article from the same source. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136119,00.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #91 October 21, 2004 QuoteSmart way to get people killed. Got a complaint go talk to the "no person". "I hear what your saying and understand your concerns" Now Charge!!!! Ever been forward deployed in a ground combat unit? Ever performed missions in a combat zone? You may have. Just curious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #92 October 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteDone at her own request. Not according to this article from the same source. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136119,00.html Mutually contradictory reports from Fox. Well, I suppose that's balanced reporting. Not so sure about fair.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Milo 0 #93 October 21, 2004 DOD and Army Times say it was at her request. http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Oct2004/n10212004_2004102105.html http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-465278.php Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #94 October 22, 2004 QuoteI'm kind of late getting into this one but I believe that the unit was dead wrong. Granted, I don't know all the details but, looking at it on its face, it appears that they disobeyed a lawful order. I've never been sent anywhere in the Army with "everything" I needed. However, in a combat situation, sometimes you have to improvise, adapt, and overcome. Sometimes, you've got to just suck it up and make something happen. That unit had every right to voice opinions or to point out things that might have been unsafe. The Commander should have then taken their concerns into consideration. However, they did not have the right to refuse an assigned mission. Sometimes a Commander has to send troops into harms way even if they aren’t fully prepared or ready. Even if they had to drive unarmored vehicles or even if they thought they might be carrying contaminated fuel. It doesn't matter. The situation sometimes dictates that you must drive ahead. Discipline in the ranks cannot be allowed to degrade. There is usually not much margin of error to allow for dissidence and insubordination. It should be taken care of immediately and the ones in charge should be disciplined appropriately and made examples of. This type of thing is nothing new Rhino. These types of situations arise in any war. It is not "just the beginning" of widespread mutiny as is suggested in your original post. It's just something that needs to be handled in the normal course of war. One thing I haven't seen is that this unit may have been involved in another operation; perhaps being used as bait to draw out the bad guys, but they weren't told for security reasons... Just a thought. mh . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #95 October 22, 2004 QuoteOne thing I haven't seen is that this unit may have been involved in another operation; perhaps being used as bait to draw out the bad guys, but they weren't told for security reasons... Just a thought. That sort of thing only happens in movies. Our military is honorable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #96 October 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteSmart way to get people killed. Got a complaint go talk to the "no person". "I hear what your saying and understand your concerns" Now Charge!!!! Ever been forward deployed in a ground combat unit? Ever performed missions in a combat zone? You may have. Just curious. Hi Pajarita Since you asked the questions and assuming your not a REMF here's the response in order the order thay were asked. Not sure what you mean by "forward deployed" Air Force pukes Ever perfomed Missions in a combat zone? Yes Loadmaster on C-130's 1967-1970. Dominoes. Sometime the army and Marines weren't happy to see us & our plane. I'm not curious about your experience. Talk is cheap.The action guy's I've met don't want to talk about what they did. It's just a nasty dirty job. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #97 October 22, 2004 QuoteDOD and Army Times say it was at her request. http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Oct2004/n10212004_2004102105.html http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-465278.php LMAO, You guy's are still argueing over stuff that your reading in the media. Officers are treated different than enlisted swine. The man with the star (General) isn't happy with the decisions made by the capt/lieutanent and now he has to clean up the mess and answer some embarresing questions. Fireing/demoteing the commander would be hanging your dirty laundy out for everyone to see. A lot easier if the capt.lieut resigns/asks for reassignment. We live close to Ft lewis. the army sends out convoy's all the time to the field (yakima). Seeing a broken down truck parked on the side of I-5 is not uncommen. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
