penniless 0 #51 October 15, 2004 QuoteQuote In answer to a direct question about homosexuality: Kerry: "We're all God's children. I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as." In answer to a direct question from Cokie Roberts about her openly gay daughter in an interview in 2000, Lynne Cheney said "My daughter has never declared such a thing." Lynne Cheney apparently has a problem accepting her daughter's sexuality. Perhaps that's why she's so "indignant" now at mention of it. Dick Cheney has one of the most anti-gay voting records of any current or former congressman. Sounds more like an "it's none of your damned business" kind of remark. This illustrates the problem here, we have a woman who never asked for her sexuality to be discussed nationally and everything is cynically interpreted through a prism of supposed prejudice. How the hell do you know what relationship she has with her Mother? Pure speculation and colored by what you hope and imagine to be there. It's your demons speaking not Cheney's. Lynne Cheney saying "My daughter has never declared such a thing" is on the record, after her daughter HAD declared such a thing. It's called "denial". Is this like Dick Cherney saying he had never meet Edwards when the record showed he had met him several times? Is this like Bush denying that he'd said Osama bin Laden was not a priority when the record shows that he had said that? Why do I have "demons" for pointing out Bush/Cheney hypocrisy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #52 October 15, 2004 QuoteKeith, Dorbie, cut it out. HE started it Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #53 October 15, 2004 *** "The few people reading these posts who have brain cells firing know what I mean." How typical of your arguments. "If you don't agree with me, you are stupid, unintelligent, or a moron". As a clearly marginalized person, you should be keenly aware that marginalizing others does not make their opinions worth any less than yours. I don't think is was a particularly evil that Kerry mentioned the Cheney girl, but he obviously mentioned it for reasons other than she happend to be gay. Kerry hoped to gain political advantage from it, so any politcal backlash that can be garnered by his opponents is equallly fair game. The same would be true if Bush mentioned that Kerry and his wife manage to pay a tax rate below that of someone who earned $15K a year, despite their $6 million income. If Bush mentioned it, and Kerry could figure a way to spin it to his advantage (like use it to demonstrate why the rich should pay more taxes), that is how the game is played. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #54 October 15, 2004 QuoteKeith, Dorbie, cut it out. Ooh! Can I spank Keith, since he is being a naughty boy??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #55 October 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuote In answer to a direct question about homosexuality: Kerry: "We're all God's children. I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as." In answer to a direct question from Cokie Roberts about her openly gay daughter in an interview in 2000, Lynne Cheney said "My daughter has never declared such a thing." Lynne Cheney apparently has a problem accepting her daughter's sexuality. Perhaps that's why she's so "indignant" now at mention of it. Dick Cheney has one of the most anti-gay voting records of any current or former congressman. Sounds more like an "it's none of your damned business" kind of remark. This illustrates the problem here, we have a woman who never asked for her sexuality to be discussed nationally and everything is cynically interpreted through a prism of supposed prejudice. How the hell do you know what relationship she has with her Mother? Pure speculation and colored by what you hope and imagine to be there. It's your demons speaking not Cheney's. Lynne Cheney saying "My daughter has never declared such a thing" is on the record, after her daughter HAD declared such a thing. It's called "denial". Is this like Dick Cherney saying he had never meet Edwards when the record showed he had met him several times? Is this like Bush denying that he'd said Osama bin Laden was not a priority when the record shows that he had said that? Why do I have "demons" for pointing out Bush/Cheney hypocrisy? Dude, that's your interpretation, you're seeing and supposing things that aren't there. It seems pretty obvious but then I'm observing you from the outside, not the inside. You take one remark that's open to interpretation, (I have offered mine) and spin it into the most conveniently damning portrayal of someone you loathe. You then assume it's some kind of objective truth as if this has nothing to do with the observer. Your assumptions on this are rooted in your beliefs, that's why it's your demons speaking. You just don't know what the Cheney family relationships are, they seem pretty supportive and protective of their daughter IMHO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites penniless 0 #56 October 15, 2004 Quote Lynne Cheney saying "My daughter has never declared such a thing" is on the record, after her daughter HAD declared such a thing. It's called "denial". Dude, that's your interpretation, you're seeing and supposing things that aren't there. Fine. I'm waiting to hear your interpretation of Lynne Cheney's on-the-record statement denying her daughter's declaration of homosexuality. I'm waiting to hear your interpretation of Dick Cheney's anti-gay voting record as a congressman. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #55 October 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuote In answer to a direct question about homosexuality: Kerry: "We're all God's children. I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as." In answer to a direct question from Cokie Roberts about her openly gay daughter in an interview in 2000, Lynne Cheney said "My daughter has never declared such a thing." Lynne Cheney apparently has a problem accepting her daughter's sexuality. Perhaps that's why she's so "indignant" now at mention of it. Dick Cheney has one of the most anti-gay voting records of any current or former congressman. Sounds more like an "it's none of your damned business" kind of remark. This illustrates the problem here, we have a woman who never asked for her sexuality to be discussed nationally and everything is cynically interpreted through a prism of supposed prejudice. How the hell do you know what relationship she has with her Mother? Pure speculation and colored by what you hope and imagine to be there. It's your demons speaking not Cheney's. Lynne Cheney saying "My daughter has never declared such a thing" is on the record, after her daughter HAD declared such a thing. It's called "denial". Is this like Dick Cherney saying he had never meet Edwards when the record showed he had met him several times? Is this like Bush denying that he'd said Osama bin Laden was not a priority when the record shows that he had said that? Why do I have "demons" for pointing out Bush/Cheney hypocrisy? Dude, that's your interpretation, you're seeing and supposing things that aren't there. It seems pretty obvious but then I'm observing you from the outside, not the inside. You take one remark that's open to interpretation, (I have offered mine) and spin it into the most conveniently damning portrayal of someone you loathe. You then assume it's some kind of objective truth as if this has nothing to do with the observer. Your assumptions on this are rooted in your beliefs, that's why it's your demons speaking. You just don't know what the Cheney family relationships are, they seem pretty supportive and protective of their daughter IMHO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penniless 0 #56 October 15, 2004 Quote Lynne Cheney saying "My daughter has never declared such a thing" is on the record, after her daughter HAD declared such a thing. It's called "denial". Dude, that's your interpretation, you're seeing and supposing things that aren't there. Fine. I'm waiting to hear your interpretation of Lynne Cheney's on-the-record statement denying her daughter's declaration of homosexuality. I'm waiting to hear your interpretation of Dick Cheney's anti-gay voting record as a congressman. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #57 October 15, 2004 >Can I spank Keith, since he is being a naughty boy??? You can spank whoever you want, Keely. (90%? right.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #58 October 15, 2004 Cheney's voting record is not the issue here, although it is the issue that clouds your judgement on the issue. Of course his voting record would have been a valid campaign issue, but that's not what Kerry or Edwards chose to tackle. I've already explained what I think of the mother's comments. P.S. it comes down to you trying to deconstruct a private family relationship while inserting your pejudice that is in essence none of your damned business. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mardigrasbob 0 #59 October 15, 2004 Moderator:Senator Kerry, Do you think drug addicts are born that way? Sen. Kerry:"If you were to talk to Jeb Bush's daughter, who is a crackhead, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as." ------------------ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #60 October 15, 2004 Quote>Can I spank Keith, since he is being a naughty boy??? You can spank whoever you want, Keely. (90%? right.) Actually, it's more like 40% this week... I am feeling bitchy. Sunshine wants me to spank her... Now I just need Keith's permission too, but he might not let me since I'm a girl. Can I, Keith? Please??? Pretty please, with sugar on top??? I promise to be gentle. Hmm, and I wouldn't mind spanking Cheney's lesbian daughter too...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TypicalFish 0 #61 October 15, 2004 QuoteModerator:Senator Kerry, Do you think drug addicts are born that way? Sen. Kerry:"If you were to talk to Jeb Bush's daughter, who is a crackhead, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as." I guess this anology works if you think of being a lesbian of the same moral value as being a crackhead..."I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #62 October 15, 2004 QuoteHow typical of your arguments. "If you don't agree with me, you are stupid, unintelligent, or a moron". You put quote marks around that sentence as if you were quoting me, but I never said it or anything like it. Here's what I would gladly say instead: "If you don't agree with me on a factual matter, and you have no reasoning or evidence for your position but I do have those things, then you're stupid, unintelligent, or a moron." First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #63 October 15, 2004 By the way, I see this exact pattern around here a lot. Especially among the anti-gay types! Here's the technique: They make a strong claim and justify it based on evidence or reasoning (i.e.: "Gay people are bad because they all {x}"). When someone with more information shows that gay people do NOT all {x}, they come up with some new faulty justification. When all of the lousy justifications are shown to be bullshit, they stubbornly stand by their now-discredited conclusion anyway. And that's what I find moronic: Loyalty to an untrue conclusion rather than loyalty to the truths which disprove the conclusion. First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #64 October 15, 2004 QuoteIf I said "Yeah, Rhino's daughter just got married" you'd kick my ass? I'm running out of wood for your signs Bill... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #65 October 15, 2004 QuoteCalling a lesbian a lesbian is NOT an insult. Maybe not if directly said to her it wouldn't be... But Kerry in Dick Cheney's face saying "ha ha, your daughter is a lesbian" might not warrant a great response. And, if parents aren't proud of their child, or ashamed in some way of them being a lesbian they would consider it to be an even worse comment. Kerry did not in any way need to, or benefit by making that statement. It was a shot. He saw an in and he took it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dagny 0 #66 October 15, 2004 QuoteThe ONLY people who are offended here are those who stand to gain by being offended. They are pretending. Those who have a RIGHT to be offended aren't. Sticking a feather up your ass does not make you a chicken. I am trying to understand what you are suggesting and I believe I'm coming up short. It seems as if you are insinuating that one must be gay to have a right to comment on all things gay? Or maybe it's that one must be democratic to comment on all things democratic? I have nothing to gain here, but I found Kerry's mention of Cheney's daughter offensive. Just as I would have found any mention of personal, off-task issues by either party an offensive act of passive-agressiveness.Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic. -Salvador Dali Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #67 October 15, 2004 QuoteI have nothing to gain here, but I found Kerry's mention of Cheney's daughter offensive. I'm voting for Kerry and I found that comment to be unacceptable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites narcimund 0 #68 October 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe ONLY people who are offended here are those who stand to gain by being offended. They are pretending. Those who have a RIGHT to be offended aren't. Sticking a feather up your ass does not make you a chicken. I am trying to understand what you are suggesting and I believe I'm coming up short. It seems as if you are insinuating that one must be gay to have a right to comment on all things gay? Or maybe it's that one must be democratic to comment on all things democratic? I think it's ridiculous to be offended on behalf of lesbians when lesbians themselves aren't offended. Rhino (who I was responding to) made clear in his analogy that it's like black people being offended by white people using the word "nigger". If black people as a reasonably unified community declared that the word "nigger" was not offensive and they were perfectly happy with white people using it as an non-loaded label for the group, then that would be definitive. It's also ridiculous to be offended on behalf of the Cheney family when one week earlier they were happily and openly talking about it themselves. They eagerly talked about it in public and didn't show outrage until (Gasp!) they realized it could play to their P.R. advantage to do so. On your last supposition about being "democratic" I think you mean "Democrat". I am not Democrat. Don't lump me in with any of your silly granfaloons. First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tunaplanet 0 #69 October 15, 2004 Totally classless by Kerry. What's even more disgusting was the comments Edwards' wife made afterwards. I was floored she said what she did about Cheney and his daughter. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TypicalFish 0 #70 October 15, 2004 Quote I was floored she said what she did about Cheney and his daughter. Didn't hear anything about this; what was it?"I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dagny 0 #71 October 15, 2004 QuoteOn your last supposition about being "democratic" I think you mean "Democrat". I am not Democrat. Don't lump me in with any of your silly granfaloons. Though I disagree with your opinion of the Kerry comment, I respect your position. I do still believe the comment was unnecessary and that personal issues have about as much a place in political debates as the public did in Clinton's office when he took to a certain intern. I do want to clarify, however, that I was not calling you a democrat. I was asking if your earlier statement meant that one must be a democrat to comment on things democratic. Basically, I was wondering what gives someone the right to be offended or have a comment. It was only a question, not a label. Besides, *I* am a democrat and I don't find it offensive to be labeled one. Off subject...What does granfaloons mean? I've never heard of that word? EDIT to add: Perhaps you meant this..."One of the basic concepts of Bokononism, the secretive island religion of Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle, is that of a granfalloon. A granfalloon is a recognized grouping of people that, underneath it all, has no real meaning. " I think you're onto something there. And, I'd like to postulate that all labels....republican, democrat, black, white, straight, gay is simply a series of granfalloons.Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic. -Salvador Dali Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mardigrasbob 0 #72 October 15, 2004 QuoteOff subject...What does granfaloons mean? I've never heard of that word? Kurt Vonnegut (1976) terms a "granfalloon," a proud and meaningless association of human beings. One of social psychology's most remarkable findings is the ease with which granfalloons can be created. For example, the social psychologist Henri Tajfel merely brought subjects into his lab, flipped a coin, and randomly assigned them to be labeled either Xs or Ws (Tajfel 1981; Turner 1987). At the end of the study, total strangers were acting as if those in their granfalloon were their close kin and those in the other group were their worst enemies. Granfalloons are powerful propaganda devices because they are easy to create and, once established, the granfalloon defines social reality and maintains social identities. Information is dependent on the granfalloon. Since most granfalloons quickly develop outgroups, criticisms can be attributed to those "evil ones" outside the group, who are thus stifled. To maintain a desired social identity, such as that of a seeker or a New Age rebel, one must obey the dictates of the granfalloon and its leaders. -------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dagny 0 #73 October 15, 2004 Thank you, I just found the answer to it, but I appreciate yours as being more definitive. Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic. -Salvador Dali Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites penniless 0 #74 October 16, 2004 QuoteCheney's voting record is not the issue here, although it is the issue that clouds your judgement on the issue. Of course his voting record would have been a valid campaign issue, but that's not what Kerry or Edwards chose to tackle. I've already explained what I think of the mother's comments. P.S. it comes down to you trying to deconstruct a private family relationship while inserting your pejudice that is in essence none of your damned business. Since Dick Cheney, Lynne Cheney and Mary Cheney have all spoken about it in public and on radio or TV, how does it suddenly become a private matter? No - the indignation is fabricated for political gain. I don't have a "pejudice" either. I do have a "pairo'dice" though Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #75 October 16, 2004 Narcimund, I have no issues with homosexuality, you know that. And yet, I found it offensive as a comment as well as others. I think, for me, the issue is simply that it's not any of Kerry's business, and the use of a person - by name - when the answer did not need that to be clear and complete rankles me. I think it crossed a line that shouldn't be crossed; if it were his daughter, would he have brought it up? Dunno the answer to that, but it's an interesting thing to consider. Just more food for thought. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
rhino 0 #65 October 15, 2004 QuoteCalling a lesbian a lesbian is NOT an insult. Maybe not if directly said to her it wouldn't be... But Kerry in Dick Cheney's face saying "ha ha, your daughter is a lesbian" might not warrant a great response. And, if parents aren't proud of their child, or ashamed in some way of them being a lesbian they would consider it to be an even worse comment. Kerry did not in any way need to, or benefit by making that statement. It was a shot. He saw an in and he took it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dagny 0 #66 October 15, 2004 QuoteThe ONLY people who are offended here are those who stand to gain by being offended. They are pretending. Those who have a RIGHT to be offended aren't. Sticking a feather up your ass does not make you a chicken. I am trying to understand what you are suggesting and I believe I'm coming up short. It seems as if you are insinuating that one must be gay to have a right to comment on all things gay? Or maybe it's that one must be democratic to comment on all things democratic? I have nothing to gain here, but I found Kerry's mention of Cheney's daughter offensive. Just as I would have found any mention of personal, off-task issues by either party an offensive act of passive-agressiveness.Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic. -Salvador Dali Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #67 October 15, 2004 QuoteI have nothing to gain here, but I found Kerry's mention of Cheney's daughter offensive. I'm voting for Kerry and I found that comment to be unacceptable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #68 October 15, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe ONLY people who are offended here are those who stand to gain by being offended. They are pretending. Those who have a RIGHT to be offended aren't. Sticking a feather up your ass does not make you a chicken. I am trying to understand what you are suggesting and I believe I'm coming up short. It seems as if you are insinuating that one must be gay to have a right to comment on all things gay? Or maybe it's that one must be democratic to comment on all things democratic? I think it's ridiculous to be offended on behalf of lesbians when lesbians themselves aren't offended. Rhino (who I was responding to) made clear in his analogy that it's like black people being offended by white people using the word "nigger". If black people as a reasonably unified community declared that the word "nigger" was not offensive and they were perfectly happy with white people using it as an non-loaded label for the group, then that would be definitive. It's also ridiculous to be offended on behalf of the Cheney family when one week earlier they were happily and openly talking about it themselves. They eagerly talked about it in public and didn't show outrage until (Gasp!) they realized it could play to their P.R. advantage to do so. On your last supposition about being "democratic" I think you mean "Democrat". I am not Democrat. Don't lump me in with any of your silly granfaloons. First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #69 October 15, 2004 Totally classless by Kerry. What's even more disgusting was the comments Edwards' wife made afterwards. I was floored she said what she did about Cheney and his daughter. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TypicalFish 0 #70 October 15, 2004 Quote I was floored she said what she did about Cheney and his daughter. Didn't hear anything about this; what was it?"I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dagny 0 #71 October 15, 2004 QuoteOn your last supposition about being "democratic" I think you mean "Democrat". I am not Democrat. Don't lump me in with any of your silly granfaloons. Though I disagree with your opinion of the Kerry comment, I respect your position. I do still believe the comment was unnecessary and that personal issues have about as much a place in political debates as the public did in Clinton's office when he took to a certain intern. I do want to clarify, however, that I was not calling you a democrat. I was asking if your earlier statement meant that one must be a democrat to comment on things democratic. Basically, I was wondering what gives someone the right to be offended or have a comment. It was only a question, not a label. Besides, *I* am a democrat and I don't find it offensive to be labeled one. Off subject...What does granfaloons mean? I've never heard of that word? EDIT to add: Perhaps you meant this..."One of the basic concepts of Bokononism, the secretive island religion of Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle, is that of a granfalloon. A granfalloon is a recognized grouping of people that, underneath it all, has no real meaning. " I think you're onto something there. And, I'd like to postulate that all labels....republican, democrat, black, white, straight, gay is simply a series of granfalloons.Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic. -Salvador Dali Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mardigrasbob 0 #72 October 15, 2004 QuoteOff subject...What does granfaloons mean? I've never heard of that word? Kurt Vonnegut (1976) terms a "granfalloon," a proud and meaningless association of human beings. One of social psychology's most remarkable findings is the ease with which granfalloons can be created. For example, the social psychologist Henri Tajfel merely brought subjects into his lab, flipped a coin, and randomly assigned them to be labeled either Xs or Ws (Tajfel 1981; Turner 1987). At the end of the study, total strangers were acting as if those in their granfalloon were their close kin and those in the other group were their worst enemies. Granfalloons are powerful propaganda devices because they are easy to create and, once established, the granfalloon defines social reality and maintains social identities. Information is dependent on the granfalloon. Since most granfalloons quickly develop outgroups, criticisms can be attributed to those "evil ones" outside the group, who are thus stifled. To maintain a desired social identity, such as that of a seeker or a New Age rebel, one must obey the dictates of the granfalloon and its leaders. -------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dagny 0 #73 October 15, 2004 Thank you, I just found the answer to it, but I appreciate yours as being more definitive. Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic. -Salvador Dali Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penniless 0 #74 October 16, 2004 QuoteCheney's voting record is not the issue here, although it is the issue that clouds your judgement on the issue. Of course his voting record would have been a valid campaign issue, but that's not what Kerry or Edwards chose to tackle. I've already explained what I think of the mother's comments. P.S. it comes down to you trying to deconstruct a private family relationship while inserting your pejudice that is in essence none of your damned business. Since Dick Cheney, Lynne Cheney and Mary Cheney have all spoken about it in public and on radio or TV, how does it suddenly become a private matter? No - the indignation is fabricated for political gain. I don't have a "pejudice" either. I do have a "pairo'dice" though Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #75 October 16, 2004 Narcimund, I have no issues with homosexuality, you know that. And yet, I found it offensive as a comment as well as others. I think, for me, the issue is simply that it's not any of Kerry's business, and the use of a person - by name - when the answer did not need that to be clear and complete rankles me. I think it crossed a line that shouldn't be crossed; if it were his daughter, would he have brought it up? Dunno the answer to that, but it's an interesting thing to consider. Just more food for thought. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
