feuergnom 22 #1 September 28, 2004 ok- the patriot act has been fairly discussed in here. but i don't know if some of you have realized of how – under the guise of "war against terrorism" - this act is eating away your constitutional rights. from some stories i have heard & read in european news i have to come to the conclusion that your freedom of speech is no longer granted. maybe not for joe average on the street but definitely for teachers working in universities. as i understand u.s. universities are funded by private sponsors. according to media there have been cases where these sponsors have made successfull attempts to get teachers who are critical about the current administration fired. not directly but by threatening the universities to withdraw their financial support if these teachers/professors still appear on their payroll so my questions are What do you think about this? Do you find this disturbing or normal? Do you think this is just a biased european/liberal/whatever perception? to make things clear: i'm not bashing the u.s. but if this happened over here i would be deeply concerned and ask myself if democracy is still working or if my country is run by a totalitarian regime (we had it first hand some 60 years ago and memory of how this started is still fresh....) ok - this is my first post in s.c. – that means The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,148 #2 September 28, 2004 Well, that's not the patriot act, but free enterprise at work. Tenure is supposed to protect professors, but universities are also alert to anything that can jeopardize their income, since they are so heavily dependent on donations. It's incumbent on professors with controversial views to find universities that nurture these views, too -- a biologist who starts doing significant research in evolution isn't going to get very far at Oral Roberts (a fundamentalist university) even if he did begin to believe in evolution after starting to teach there. Does that mean that the university will pressure tenured faculty to stop certain research or saying some things? Most won't, but some, which either are very ideologican to begin with, or which are very dependent on the donations in question, might. I'll bet it doesn't happen that often, though. Often in the press you don't read about the usual, only the unusual. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 22 #3 September 28, 2004 Quotebut universities are also alert to anything that can jeopardize their income, since they are so heavily dependent on donations. maybe that's the point that is so hard to understand or bothering because the majority of european universities are run by the state and the don't rely on private donors. doesn't that open a big door for lobbying-groups? to make somebody shut up cause he's afraid of loosing his job, a ruined career a ruined live just because he is wording his/her concerns? in europe we've lived very close to the iron curtain - to many stories of people critical to the system made shut up that way.The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallRate 0 #4 September 28, 2004 Well, we haven't been able to shut Kallend up yet! FallRate (just kidding John) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #5 September 28, 2004 Its freedom at work... if I have a lot of money and I can donate it to a school, I'm going to donate it to a school that expresses similar values to my own... If that school begins to express values contray to mine, I have the freedom to withhold my donations, and feel obliged to let the school know why... if that cost someone their job, thats their problem... Of course that is with private schools... public schools, which we have, are a little different. Edit to add... that has nothing to do with the Patriot Act... I don't disagree that the PA has eroded certain rights... It needs some serious revisions. J JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #6 September 28, 2004 Quotemaybe that's the point that is so hard to understand or bothering because the majority of european universities are run by the state and the don't rely on private donors. doesn't that open a big door for lobbying-groups? to make somebody shut up cause he's afraid of loosing his job, a ruined career a ruined live just because he is wording his/her concerns? You've got a contradcition here. You're trying to say that having private universities that can run their schools however they want are more in danger of outside influence than a state run school. I would think the opposite. Here we have a choice. You can go to a liberal school like Berkley, or you can go to a conservative school like William and Mary. If people don't like the policies or agendas of a particular university they can pick another. You're locked into all schools having the agenda put forth by the gov't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #7 September 28, 2004 QuoteQuotemaybe that's the point that is so hard to understand or bothering because the majority of european universities are run by the state and the don't rely on private donors. doesn't that open a big door for lobbying-groups? to make somebody shut up cause he's afraid of loosing his job, a ruined career a ruined live just because he is wording his/her concerns? You've got a contradcition here. You're trying to say that having private universities that can run their schools however they want are more in danger of outside influence than a state run school. I would think the opposite. Here we have a choice. You can go to a liberal school like Berkley, or you can go to a conservative school like William and Mary. If people don't like the policies or agendas of a particular university they can pick another. You're locked into all schools having the agenda put forth by the gov't. They have tenure in Europe too, you know. At Cambridge the only way a tenured faculty could get fired was for "gross dunkenness" or "gross moral turpitude". The last time they tried to fire a professor was in the 1920s when the famous biologist J.B.S. Haldane had gotten a succession of female teaching assistants pregnant. The university was overruled because the ladies had consented to sex, and hence the offense was only "ordinary" and not "gross" moral turpitude.Haldane eventually left anyway and went to the University of London.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #8 September 28, 2004 Quote Haldane eventually left anyway and went to the University of London. That in and of its self is a clear indication of alot of the problems in Europe now. I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
