Predictability of 270 degree turns: (Was Fatality - Eloy)

[GravityGirl 0]

I guess my point was to try your best to estimate the tragectory and determine if an collision may occur.... watch for his/her head or eyes to see where they are looking.... be prepared to do a brake turn if necessary.

So many "what ifs" have come up these weeks. The best advise I can give, is to stay out of that position to begin with.

Evaluate traffic after you open. Try to let the smaller canopies go by you and get lower in the pattern. Don't land in the "hot swoop zone". If there is a smaller parachute above you, try not to loose sight of it during your approach.

And for goodness sakes swoopers.... don't hang brakes from the time you open! Do your part and rally for your slot in the pattern. If you want the sky to yourselves do a hop n pop or get out last and open high.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[kallend 1,623]

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I guess my point was to try your best to estimate the tragectory and determine if an collision may occur.... watch for his/her head or eyes to see where they are looking.... be prepared to do a brake turn if necessary.

So many "what ifs" have come up these weeks. The best advise I can give, is to stay out of that position to begin with.

Evaluate traffic after you open. Try to let the smaller canopies go by you and get lower in the pattern. Don't land in the "hot swoop zone". If there is a smaller parachute above you, try not to loose sight of it during your approach.

And for goodness sakes swoopers.... don't hang brakes from the time you open! Do your part and rally for your slot in the pattern. If you want the sky to yourselves do a hop n pop or get out last and open high.

So you think it's up to the low, slow flier to keep out of the way of the high, fast one. That's the EXACT opposite of the rules for all other types of aviation collision avoidance.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,400]

I agree with most of your points. I worry about this one though:

>If there is a smaller parachute above you, try not to loose sight of it during your approach.

I agree it's a good idea, but that's pretty much where you are guaranteed to lose sight of the other guy. If I want to keep someone above me in sight, I have to swing my parachute back and forth to see above me - and that's exactly what you _don't_ want to be doing on final.

[GravityGirl 0]

>>So you think it's up to the low, slow flier to keep out of the way of the high, fast one.<<

How did you come to that conclusion, Kallend?

I think it's up to EVERYONE to fly as alert and defensively as necessary for their conditions and environment.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[GravityGirl 0]

You are right Bill. You can't see in your blind spot. You have to combine intuition and trust at some point. Or like you said, land on the outskirts.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[kallend 1,623]

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>>So you think it's up to the low, slow flier to keep out of the way of the high, fast one.<<

How did you come to that conclusion, Kallend?

.

It's the conclusion I reach from reading your posts on this issue.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[GravityGirl 0]

Well then I fail to put my thoughts into written words properly.

There are a lot of questions from those flying slower parachutes in regards to how they can protect themselves. I'm simply offering feedback on how to fly more defensively and intuitively rather than fly phat, dumb and happy and HOPE that the guy/gal behind you is doing what they are supposed to do.

I never meant to imply that it is your resposibility as a slower parachute to concede the right of way to a higher canopy.

Simply, it's in your best interest to fly both defensive and predictable to the best of your ability.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[dharma1976 0]

I think what you are trying to say is:

"once your parachute is open keep your head on a swivel..."

and that goes for all of us period the end...

High Performance Pilot...

Accuracy Pilot...

"Just get me to the ground safely" Pilot

and any other parachute pilot that is in the air...

Period the end, no need to get into a semantic bitching people out argument over the fact that some people fucked up...

guess what we are all human, accidents happen...

if we all keep an eye we can do a better job of protecting ourselves and others...there will never be a perfect way to do so...

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

>>So you think it's up to the low, slow flier to keep out of the way of the high, fast one.<<

How did you come to that conclusion, Kallend?

I think it's up to EVERYONE to fly as alert and defensively as necessary for their conditions and environment.

There is a huge blind spot above and behind. If you try to clear it by manouvering you will be, of necessity, flying unpredictably to other skydivers, including the swooper coming at you from above and behind.

I can assure you I have thought about this A LOT, having been hit from behind in a low altitude canopy collision. I truly believe separation is the ONLY way to go.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[chachi 0]

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And for goodness sakes swoopers.... don't hang brakes from the time you open! Do your part and rally for your slot in the pattern. If you want the sky to yourselves do a hop n pop or get out last and open high.

i honestly don't understand this comment. if i choose to hang in brakes and land last in clear airspace after all the guys rushed for the gates why shouldn't i?

[billvon 2,400]

>if i choose to hang in brakes and land last in clear airspace after all
>the guys rushed for the gates why shouldn't i?

Because:

1) other people may be trying to do the same thing; leads to the "floating arms race" which is hard to predict

2) it's very hard to out-float a lighter woman under a Pilot 210 who opened at 5000 feet

3) for sequencing, the ideal (assuming everyone opens at the same altitude) is faster canopies land first. That gives you the most possible separation. If the larger canopies open higher (which is often the case) it's even more important.

(this is assuming the swoopers are loading their canopies fairly heavily; most do)

[chachi 0]

Quote

>if i choose to hang in brakes and land last in clear airspace after all
>the guys rushed for the gates why shouldn't i?

Because:

1) other people may be trying to do the same thing; leads to the "floating arms race" which is hard to predict

very seldom does this ever happen and easy to spot.

2) it's very hard to out-float a lighter woman under a Pilot 210 who opened at 5000 feet

i load my jvx87 @ 2.2 and can fly with a student / tandem canopy in deep brakes if i choose. how many light woman fly a pilot 210 and for that matter how would one person be a concern. if i couldn't out float someone i would go. seems like your reaching for the out of the ordinary.

3) for sequencing, the ideal (assuming everyone opens at the same altitude) is faster canopies land first. That gives you the most possible separation. If the larger canopies open higher (which is often the case) it's even more important.

swoopers on highly loaded crossbrace canopies tend to open much higher than the average skydiver, or people under bigger canopies. i don't know many that open under 3500', most prefer a 4000' pull to deal with their shit and give them much more time in case of the worst.

you think it is safer for them to rush through the traffic to land first?

(this is assuming the swoopers are loading their canopies fairly heavily; most do)

just wanted to add to this post. i find in most cases it is the average guy under his sabre 135 that opens at 2500', doesn't fly a predictable patten, spirals to be the first down, etc.....

if i choose to wait my time, have clear airspace (if in a mixed landing area) before i initiate a high performance landing i think i am not only looking out for the safety of others but also choosing not to put myself in a rushed position where i can be the one to make the huge error. i think a view of the entire landing area from a high vantage point gives me a clearer picture than rushing to get out of peoples way in many cases.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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..... and for that matter how would one person be a concern. ......

As long as you see that one person in the pattern with you and avoid them, it's ok as long as the patterns are separate.
But the day you don't see them.... well - go read the recent incidents that say 'there were only two people in the pattern'

"Ah-there's no one in the pattern except me. Ok cool I can do a super-duper swoop. Swoop...swoop swoop - oh shit - there is someone in the pattern -Bamm!!!!!" - (in)famous last words

The rest of what Bonnie & Bill say is something I don't wholly agree with either.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[chachi 0]

sorry, i added to my post....

[dharma1976 0]

this and other posts abotu this have turned into a 3 year old shouting match of did not...did too...did not...did too...did not...did too

how about we work together already...


Cant we all just get along and be friends

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[billvon 2,400]

>swoopers on highly loaded crossbrace canopies tend to open much
>higher than the average skydiver, or people under bigger canopies.

It's been my experience that people with bigger canopies are newer and prefer to open higher. I think we also have to consider that if a jumper has a canopy that is so small/worrisome that he has to open at 4000 feet for safety reasons - his canopy/skill set may not be compatible with a standard jump run. It would not be safe to do this at Rantoul, for example, unless he jumped on a load that was specifically set up for higher openings (like the helicopters.)

>you think it is safer for them to rush through the traffic to land first?

Yes. Again, assuming similar pull altitudes (which is pretty common) it's safer for the faster canopies to "rush down" and land first.

Let's take a few cases:

Bigways. People open at assigned altitudes, not at the altitudes they prefer. Faster canopies should land first; slower canopies should float and land last. That gives you the most separation.

4-way training. In 4-way you have all teams opening at about the same altitude. Take our team last year. We had canopies ranging from a Velocity 90 to a Pilot 140. We broke off and opened at the same altitude (about 3500.) Most groups open between 3000 and 3500. Usually Pat and I would race down because we generally had the fastest canopies. This both let us set the landing direction and got separation from the slower canopies.

Mixed load. Let's say you have a fun 8-way, a few 2-way freefly groups, and some AFF students and tandems. The 8-way is going to open at about the same altitude (around 3000 feet) and have larger canopies. Some of the freeflyers will have small canopies, some large. Openings will typically be between 3000 and 4000. Students will open at 5000; JM's will open around 3000 to get down faster. Note that since the freeflyers will typically open before the RWers (even though they get out later) they will be lower to begin with when the RWers open.

Again, generally the safest thing to do is for the faster canopies to land first, and have the slower canopies land last. This gives more space between canopies.

Swooping load. If there's a jump run set up specifically for swooping, it might well make sense to have the larger canopies pull low and the smaller canopies to pull _very_ high, say at 5000. This gives enough separation that the larger canopies can land before the smaller canopies get there, and leaves enough space for the smaller canopies to set up. This is doable as long as you talk about it first. As always, communication is key here. (Of course, a 5000 foot jump run _before_ the rest of the load gets out would be even better.)

[chachi 0]

"Yes. Again, assuming similar pull altitudes (which is pretty common) it's safer for the faster canopies to "rush down" and land first."

while i appreciate your thoughts and see how from your own perspective this is the "way" it should be how about you put yourself into my shoes for a minute.

my one point will be that it is safest if everyone takes a look around on opening and separates themselves vertically and horizontally and gets into a pattern.

as for smaller loaded canopies "rushing" into anything causes big potential for error. there is a way for varying size canopies to fly together but forcing people into a specific slot creates a precedent. precedent forces people to put themselves into bad spots (like NEEDING to turn into the wind). on one hand people will trash swoopers for being reckless and at the same time think it is smart for us to rush and land first. maybe that is why swooper A doesn't see stilletto B that spiralled lower because he thinks he should always be first down?

open, look around, stow slider, assess entire load, find vertical and horizontal space to fly in while getting into pattern, approach my setup, clear all air space, make turn with head on swivel is my process. no one, at any dropzone is going to force me to rush into anything. if i plow someone, regardless of most situations i am going to be the one they blame because i was the swooper. therefore i will make a responsible decision as to at which point i will land which varies on every single load.

[billvon 2,400]

>my one point will be that it is safest if everyone takes a look around on
>opening and separates themselves vertically and horizontally and gets into
>a pattern.

I agree there. And if everyone opens at an approximately simillar altitude, you will get "natural" vertical separation - after 30 seconds, the larger canopies will be higher and the smaller canopies will be lower even if no one does anything at all. That helps, and is often sufficient. If it's not, the first people can help by getting down faster and the last people can help out by floating a bit. This gives more overall vertical separatiom.

>as for smaller loaded canopies "rushing" into anything causes big potential
>for error.

True. Both floating and descending rapidly can cause potential for error.

>there is a way for varying size canopies to fly together but forcing
>people into a specific slot creates a precedent.

I'm not talking about forcing anyone into anything. As I said previously, if everyone does absolutely nothing but fly a pattern, the smaller canopies will land first anyway. That's the 'natural' vertical separation you get. If you need more separation, the smart thing to do (IMO) is to increase that separation, not try to reverse it.

>on one hand people will trash swoopers for being reckless and at the
>same time think it is smart for us to rush and land first. maybe that is
>why swooper A doesn't see stilletto B that spiralled lower because he
>thinks he should always be first down?

Just as swooper A might not see the big canopy above him because he's below it and trying to float upwards.

I'm not talking about "rushing" in the sense of doing things too fast. Open, get into a pattern, and ride front risers the whole way down. No need to "hurry." Or, if the higher descent rate worries you, do nothing and let the natural difference in descent rates create separation. I just think that trying to reverse that is a mistake, because it means you have to get above everyone else - and that's where your blind spot is (above you.)

[dharma1976 0]

did too

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[dharma1976 0]

did not

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[dharma1976 0]

I mean seriously guys and gals...

how about this, one day this sport no matter how much you do right might just bite you in the ass...

instead of blaming everyone and thier mother....

eg: damn flat fliers...

damn freefliers...

damn swoopers....

damn normal pilots....

lets just make peace with the fact that guess what you can die

get over it

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[chachi 0]

"I agree there. And if everyone opens at an approximately simillar altitude, you will get "natural" vertical separation - after 30 seconds, the larger canopies will be higher and the smaller canopies will be lower even if no one does anything at all. That helps, and is often sufficient. If it's not, the first people can help by getting down faster and the last people can help out by floating a bit. This gives more overall vertical separation."

you talk like people don't like to go playing around under their canopies which will ruin any natural separation. people usually find there own space, play a bit, and then go looking to jam into a pattern all at the same time.

"the smart thing to do (IMO) is to increase that separation, not try to reverse it"

it is not reversing things if i open last on an otter load and decide the best course of action is to wait until the 15-18 people that are already lower than me to land. i can hang in brakes forever.

"Just as swooper A might not see the big canopy above him because he's below it and trying to float upwards."

you can't float upwards. you are right to say that the blind spot is above so if anyone is above me then i am in the right of way situation.

"Open, get into a pattern, and ride front risers the whole way down."

riding fronts all the way down to appease you is not why i pay to skydive.

i will say it one more time. you are talking about the perfect situation if everyone on an otter load opened at the exact same moment. real life is ALWAYS different on every single load i have ever flown.

people don't just fly their stilletto in a docile manner that "naturally" has a heavier loaded canopy sinking more. across an entire otter load there may be as much as a minute between the openings of all canopies. having a silly rule that says i should ride my fronts down hurries my setup, causes potential for mistakes, and in my opinion is more dangerous than simply making good decisions by assessing the situation on every single load and separating myslf in a safe manner before performing any maneuver.

it is my lift ticket, not yours. i will not rush, hurry, or proceed faster than i feel safe doing in any situation to fit into your magical fairy zone where all canopies open and do nothing which will make vertical separation happen naturally.

[Pulse 0]

I agree but one simple ingrediant that seems to be missing from the equation is DISCIPLINE. Honestly, I think with canopy pilots excersizing discipline to fly as needed, I think any arrangement can be made to work. But the fact that very few canopy pilots do posess this trait keep many problems from going away.

Two cents

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[kallend 1,623]

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>

Let's take a few cases:

Bigways. People open at assigned altitudes, not at the altitudes they prefer. Faster canopies should land first; slower canopies should float and land last. That gives you the most separation.

In my experience as an outside guy on bigways, I am always a long way from the landing area when deploying, and in the saddle around 1,800 ft, while the people in the center are (obviously) closer and usually higher, which leads to separation issues.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,400]

>you talk like people don't like to go playing around under their
>canopies which will ruin any natural separation.

?? Most everyone plays around to some degree. Smaller canopies, on average, still lose altitude faster.

>it is not reversing things if i open last on an otter load and decide
>the best course of action is to wait until the 15-18 people that are
>already lower than me to land.

If you are significantly higher (i.e. you exit last and intentionally pull high) then I would agree. This comes under "planning for high pullers/swoopers" that I mentioned earlier. There's no problem with that provided it doesn't pose other hazards (as it might at Rantoul.)

>you can't float upwards.

With respect to the other traffic - you sure can!

>riding fronts all the way down to appease you is not why i pay to skydive.

You're getting combative here. I'm not trying to tell you to do anything. The reason we are talking about this is that two people died trying to swoop at Eloy a few weeks back. In one case, the person swooping was _above_ another jumper who had a more lightly loaded canopy; they were the only two in the pattern. One way this can happen is floating in brakes waiting for everyone else to land, then starting a swoop - and missing just one person on short final.

>i will say it one more time. you are talking about the perfect situation
> if everyone on an otter load opened at the exact same moment.
> real life is ALWAYS different on every single load i have ever flown.

Of course. And in real life, if you do nothing special, the smaller canopies land first. That's real, and is due to pretty simple physics. You can create more separation by having them land sooner and having lighter canopies land last. You cannot create as much separation by having all the smaller canopies float. Physics works against that.

If having the small canopies hang out in brakes works at your DZ, great. It may not have worked at Eloy - which is why we are considering alternatives.