gary350 0 #1 April 30, 2004 Can't absolutely vouch for accuracy, but did check around to try to disprove and couldn't - any other verification/not is welcome. Nobel Prizes are just one measure of intellectual output, but it is an interesting comparison. I've seen some conclusions drawn, but haven't thought it all out enough myself. Anyone else? Why is this so? Does it say something about religion/culture/society or are those Norwegians just biased? ARAB/ISLAMIC NOBEL WINNERS From a pool of 1.4 BILLION Muslims 20% of World's Population (2 out of every 10 people) Literature 1988 - Najib Mahfooz Peace 1978 - Anwar El-Sadat 1994 - Yasser Arafat 2003 - Shirin Ebadi Chemistry 1990 - Elias James Corey (Arab Christian) 1999 - Ahmed Zewail Physics 1979 - Abdus Salam Medicine 1960 - Peter Brian Medawar (Arab Christian) 1998 - Ferid Mourad (Arab Christian) JEWISH NOBEL WINNERS From a pool of 14 million Jews .2% of the World's Population (2 out of every 1,000 people) Literature 1910 - Paul Heyse 1927 - Henri Bergson 1958 - Boris Pasternak 1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon 1966 - Nelly Sachs 1976 - Saul Bellow 1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer 1981 - Elias Canetti 1987 - Joseph Brodsky 1991 - Nadine Gordimer 2002 - Imre Kertesz World Peace 1911 - Alfred Fried 1911 - Tobias Asser 1968 - Rene Cassin 1973 - Henry Kissinger 1978 - Menachem Begin 1986 - Elie Wiesel 1994 - Shimon Peres 1994 - Yitzhak Rabin 1995 - Joseph Rotblat Chemistry 1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer 1906 - Henri Moissan 1910 - Otto Wallach 1915 - Richard Willstaetter 1918 - Fritz Haber 1943 - George Charles de Hevesy 1961 - Melvin Calvin 1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz 1972 - William Howard Stein 1972 - C.B. Anfinsen 1977 - Ilya Prigogine 1979 - Herbert Charles Brown 1980 - Paul Berg 1980 - Walter Gilbert 1981 - Ronald Hoffmann 1982 - Aaron Klug 1985 - Herbert A. Hauptman 1985 - Jerome Karle 1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach 1988 - Robert Huber 1989 - Sidney Altman 1992 - Rudolph Marcus 1998 - Walter Kohn 2000 - Alan J. Heeger Economics 1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson 1971 - Simon Kuznets 1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow 1973 - Wassily Leontief 1975 - Leonid Kantorovich 1976 - Milton Friedman 1978 - Herbert A. Simon 1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein 1985 - Franco Modigliani 1987 - Robert M. Solow 1990 - Harry Markowitz 1990 - Merton Miller 1992 - Gary Becker 1993 Rober Fogel 1994 - John Harsanyi 1994 - Reinhard Selten 1997 - Robert Merton 1997 - Myron Scholes 2001 - George Akerlof 2001 - Joseph Stiglitz 2002 - Daniel Kahneman Medicine 1908 - Elie Metchnikoff 1908 - Paul Erlich 1914 - Robert Barany 1922 - Otto Meyerhof 1930 - Karl Landsteiner 1931 - Otto Warburg 1936 - Otto Loewi 1944 - Joseph Erlanger 1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser 1945 - Ernst Boris Chain 1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller 1950 - Tadeus Reichstein 1952 - Selman Abraham Waksman 1953 - Hans Krebs 1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann 1958 - Joshua Lederberg 1959 - Arthur Kornberg 1964 - Konrad Bloch 1965 - Francois Jacob 1965 - Andre Lwoff 1967 - George Wald 1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg 1969 - Salvador Luria 1970 - Julius Axelrod 1970 - Sir Bernard Katz 1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman 1975 - David Baltimore 1975 - Howard Martin Temin 1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg 1977 - Rosalyn Sussman Yalow 1977 - Andrew V. Schally 1978 - Daniel Nathans 1980 - Baruj Benacerraf 1984 - Cesar Milstein 1985 - Michael Stuart Brown 1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein 1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini] 1988 - Gertrude Elion 1989 - Harold Varmus 1991 - Erwin Neher 1991 - Bert Sakmann 1993 - Richard J. Roberts 1993 - Phillip Sharp 1994 - Alfred Gilman 1994 - Martin Rodbell 1995 - Edward B. Lewis 1997 - Stanley B. Prusiner 1998 - Robert F. Furchgott 2000 - Eric R. Kandel 2002 - Sydney Brenner 2002 - Robert H. Horvitz Physics 1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson 1908 - Gabriel Lippmann 1921 - Albert Einstein 1922 - Niels Bohr 1925 - James Franck 1925 - Gustav Hertz 1943 - Gustav Stern 1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi 1945 - Wolfgang Pauli 1952 - Felix Bloch 1954 - Max Born 1958 - Igor Tamm 1958 - Il'ja Mikhailovich 1958 - Igor Yevgenyevich 1959 - Emilio Segre 1960 - Donald A. Glaser 1961 - Robert Hofstadter 1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau 1963 - Eugene P. Wigner 1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman 1965 - Julian Schwinger 1967 - Hans Albrecht Bethe 1969 - Murray Gell-Mann 1971 - Dennis Gabor 1972 - Leon N. Cooper 1973 - Brian David Josephson 1975 - Benjamin Mottleson 1976 - Burton Richter 1978 - Arno Allan Penzias 1978 - Peter L Kapitza 1979 - Stephen Weinberg 1979 - Sheldon Glashow 1988 - Leon Lederman 1988 - Melvin Schwartz 1988 - Jack Steinberger 1990 - Jerome Friedman 1992 - Georges Charpak 1995 - Martin Perl 1995 - Frederick Reines 1996 - David M. Lee 1996 - Douglas D. Osheroff 1997 - Claude Cohen-Tannoudji 2000 - Zhores I. Alferov 2003 - Vitaly Ginsburg 2003 - Alexei Abrikosov Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #2 April 30, 2004 i really dont like this post. the smell of racism (even if to my favor in this example) , disturbs me. one could say, the nobel prize comitee is controled by jews so thats why the list is as it is. arabs are responsible for many good things, including the invention of zero in math, algebra (which is an arab word) and lots of poetry. i'd delete this thread O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #3 April 30, 2004 QuoteNobel Prizes are just one measure of intellectual output, but it is an interesting comparison. I've seen some conclusions drawn, but haven't thought it all out enough myself. Anyone else? Why is this so? Does it say something about religion/culture/society or are those Norwegians just biased? The middle east region is a civilization in decline and has been for over 300 years. The Nobel is indeed only one measurement, but you'll find that contributions in just about every sector of the "social" ladder are lacking.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #4 April 30, 2004 123456789 - Arabic numerals. Maybe you prefer I, II, III, IV, etc. for doing arithmetic. Aldebaran, Rigel, ... (names of most of the stars visible to the naked eye) - named by Arabic astronomers Algebra - Arabic invention Algorithm - named for Arabic mathematician Just some of the "A" entries, I could go on. Of course, they weren't giving out Nobels back then. The list you cite is stupid and irrelevant.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #5 April 30, 2004 QuoteOf course, they weren't giving out Nobels back then. my point exactly "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gary350 0 #6 April 30, 2004 Quotei really dont like this post. the smell of racism (even if to my favor in this example) , disturbs me. one could say, the nobel prize comitee is controled by jews so thats why the list is as it is. arabs are responsible for many good things, including the invention of zero in math, algebra (which is an arab word) and lots of poetry. i'd delete this thread O So, because you're disturbed by some facts, without any conclusions, you would censor them? The charge of even a hint of racism is absurd. Nobody claims they are an inferior people. Any slightly educated person knows that for hundreds of years the Arab/Islamic world was a center for art and science. But the fact is that things are very different now - you would be hard pressed to find anyone, even in the Arab world, that will disagree. And I am interested in why. This issue is about religion, culture, and society and the effects on intellectual output. There are many, many more examples than the Nobel Prize statistics. . . Read this article about science in the Arab world: http://chronicle.com/free/v50/i26/26a03601.htm Last October the United Nations' Development Program and the Kuwait-based Arab Fund for Social and Economic Development released a study showing how dire the situation is. Among the findings: No Arab country spends more than 0.2 percent of its gross national product on scientific research, and most of that money goes toward salaries. By contrast, the United States spends more than 10 times that amount. Fewer than one in 20 Arab university students pursue scientific disciplines. There are only 18 computers per 1,000 people in the Arab world. The global average is 78 per 1,000. Only 370 industrial patents were issued to people in Arab countries between 1980 and 2000. In South Korea during that same period, 16,000 industrial patents were issued. No more than 10,000 books were translated into Arabic over the entire past millennium, equivalent to the number translated into Spanish each year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #7 April 30, 2004 Gary, sincere question. What is the purpose of the thread? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #8 April 30, 2004 Quotethe smell of racism (even if to my favor in this example) , disturbs me. What's the parallel term to 'racism' for religious bias? Is there one? Get over it. This list is just info. The bias would be the reader's. I think the list is rather pointless personally, but it certainly doesn't disurb nor excite me, I'm rather bland about it. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #9 April 30, 2004 QuoteAny slightly educated person knows that for hundreds of years the Arab/Islamic world was a center for art and science. i'm not so sure Any slightly educated person knows that. the noble prize statistics are a fact, and so is the fact that the arab world is not at its peak (in this sense) at the moment. i think you should have mentioned this in the post, and also why compare it to jewish people? those jewish people are from all over the world and i would guess it has more to do with their education there and less with them being jewish. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gary350 0 #10 April 30, 2004 QuoteJust some of the "A" entries, I could go on.Duh. . . QuoteThe list you cite is stupid and irrelevant. Only if the goal was to show they are an inferior people, which it is not. I am interested in what is going on today and in the last couple hundred years and why - seems like Nobel awards are, as said, one measure of intellectual output in the last 100 years or so. There are many, many others - please see previous post/link regarding science. Never expected such knee-jerking from you, Professor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,123 #11 April 30, 2004 Since the Nobel prizes are a recent and have generally been awareded based on somewhat Europe/American-centric criteria, I would expect there to be a small representation of Arabs, who have not participated in that world as much as has, say, Europe or the US. I'll bet they are lousy baseball players, too. I think I'd like to echo Michele's question, why did you post this? Wendy W. (edited to add tongue-in-cheek -- thanks Bill!)There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #12 April 30, 2004 so again i ask, why compare it to the "jewish world" ? there are jews all over the world, different cultures, education levels and lifestyles. O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #13 April 30, 2004 The difference between a closed feudal society and one that is not?Arab society was light years ahead of western europe in quite a few areas prior to the renaissance.....after that, the balance began to shift and they never adapted to the changes taking place!Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casurf1978 0 #14 April 30, 2004 Hey you forgot 0, they tried to hide it from the crusaders but couldn't. How about medicine too. While european died form the plague, they had extensive hospitals and public health. Not to mention some were practicing C sections. Arabic world also presereved lots of the Roman and Greek literature and culture which wouldve been lost w/o them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #15 April 30, 2004 so why compare it to the "jewish world" ? a nation spreads all over the world with different languages cultures education levels and lifestyles... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #16 April 30, 2004 QuoteI'll bet they are lousy baseball players, too. Look out Wendy - the PC police are converging on you for that one. no one is safe (I saw the tongue in check format - nice sarcasm) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #17 April 30, 2004 QuoteOnly if the goal was to show they are an inferior people, which it is not. And I'll ask again, sincerely. What is the purpose of this thread? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gary350 0 #18 April 30, 2004 QuoteGary, sincere question. What is the purpose of the thread? Ciels- Michele Gotta go. Quick response: I think societies/cultures based on (any) religious fundamentalism and totalitarianism are bad for human progress. Curious as to why the same people who produced so much in the recent past now seem to contribute so little. Their capacity as humans is no different - it must be conditions(?) Open to the idea that it is a perception thing, and willing to listen closely to any arguments. Asking questions, not making conclusions, though I admit the facts are provocative. . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gary350 0 #19 April 30, 2004 QuoteQuoteOnly if the goal was to show they are an inferior people, which it is not. And I'll ask again, sincerely. What is the purpose of this thread? Ciels- Michele Geez Louise - give me a chance to write. . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #20 April 30, 2004 QuoteCurious as to why the same people who produced so much in the recent past now seem to contribute so little. Their capacity as humans is no different - it must be conditions(?) It's been centuries and unfortunately, conditions have affected the condition of the human spirit IMO.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #21 April 30, 2004 QuoteCurious as to why the same people who produced so much in the recent past now seem to contribute so little. Their capacity as humans is no different - it must be conditions(?) Ah. Now I getcha. Thanks for clarifying that. I have no answer ready...and I gotta go now, too. Who knows...perhaps I'll noodle it while I'm working, and come up with something. If I do, I'll post later. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #22 April 30, 2004 QuoteHey you forgot 0, they tried to hide it from the crusaders but couldn't. How about medicine too. While european died form the plague, they had extensive hospitals and public health. Not to mention some were practicing C sections. Arabic world also presereved lots of the Roman and Greek literature and culture which wouldve been lost w/o them. Mea culpa. The invention of zero was a major milestone in mathematics.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #23 April 30, 2004 QuoteQuoteGary, sincere question. What is the purpose of the thread? Ciels- Michele Gotta go. Quick response: I think societies/cultures based on (any) religious fundamentalism and totalitarianism are bad for human progress. Curious as to why the same people who produced so much in the recent past now seem to contribute so little. Their capacity as humans is no different - it must be conditions(?) Open to the idea that it is a perception thing, and willing to listen closely to any arguments. Asking questions, not making conclusions, though I admit the facts are provocative. . . Well, the decline in Arabic output seems roughly coincident with their subjugation by the Ottomans. And after the Ottomans came the British and French. One might venture that occupation by a foreign power is never good for any society.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #24 April 30, 2004 QuoteHey you forgot 0, but , but , i mentioned it in my first reply !!!! "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gary350 0 #25 April 30, 2004 Quoteso why compare it to the "jewish world" ? a nation spreads all over the world with different languages cultures education levels and lifestyles... That's a very good question - I don't know why - It is one of the questions I had when I first saw this. Again - I didn't post to make conclusions, but to ask questions. It's called curiosity. One question is if there may be differences in religious beliefs and practices (regardless of country, ethnic culture, language. . . .) that correlate somehow to an openness and curiosity that leads to greater intellectual curiosity and output. Doesn't seem incredibly likely, since Islam was also the religion when Arabs were doing much better. I think it has more to do with fundamentalism and repressive societies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites