Diplomatic revolt in UK

[Skyrad 0]

Someone else shares my views on Iraq and Israel and US forigen policy.

http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=515676

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Thats an impressive list of signatories.And here was me thinking it was just us hippies that were concerned.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[meltdown 0]

Someone else shares my views on Iraq and Israel and US forigen policy
_______________________________________________
Yeah, as usual everything wrong with the world is Bush's fault (if you're a European socialist or a third world thug).

[Botellines 0]

Yep

[Skyrad 0]

LOL!.... European socialist!! You obviously have no idea about who these diplomats are, or their (or my) political affiliations. If your looking for a European Socalist I'll give you a head start and name one for you, he's the leader of the UK's socalist party (AKA The Labour party) His name is......................TONY BLAIR.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Kennedy 0]

So you're in favor of (A) fighting "fair" (B) hamstringing coalition forces (C) fighting on the enemy's terms (D) blaming everyone working for a solution

You remind me of the people who lost us the war in Vietnam.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Skyrad 0]

'You remind me of the people who lost us the war in Vietnam. '

Not that old chestnut, you lost...... deal with it.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Kennedy 0]

So in thirty years, you won't accept blame for losing this one, either, and you'll tell me to "deal with it."

Personally, I'd rather win a war I'm fighting, than lose the war and in thirty years "deal with it."

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Skyrad 0]

Also the attitude that you have at the moment is part of the problem. What I mean is Vietnam was a war, America was in Vietnam to fight a war. The war in Iraq was declared over, the job then was nation building. Its a totaly different job and one that the US forces were totaly unprepared for, hence we've gone back to a war situation that is escalating.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

So you're in favor of (A) fighting "fair" (B) hamstringing coalition forces (C) fighting on the enemy's terms (D) blaming everyone working for a solution

You remind me of the people who lost us the war in Vietnam.

Yep, and as soon as the diplomats get out of the way and let the military do their job, the sooner this will be over and our troops can start coming home.

[Skyrad 0]

Have you ever considered that if the millatry backed off a bit the diplomats might be able to do their job alot quicker and the troops would be able to come home alot sooner? After the fighting comes the talking, instead of escalating into a war without end, why not cut to the chase and sort out the peace?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Kennedy 0]

Why can't you understand the difference between "End of Major Combat Actions," and the end of the war?

Nation building requires countering violent actions aimed at "nation demolishing." The fact remains that insurgents are still a threat to nation building efforts and must be stopped.

You also didn't disagree with me that you would hamstring our forces over there. Since when are diplomats experts on war fighting and/or nation building?

They are change jingling pussy-footers who generally would sell out anything to "keep them at the table."

I'm all for diplomatic relations, I just don't trust professional diplomats.

I'm done arguing, but the your position resembles that of the people who lost us that war. There is something to be learned from that.

Quote

The war in Iraq was declared over, the job then was nation building. Its a totaly different job and one that the US forces were totaly unprepared for, hence we've gone back to a war situation that is escalating.

So how could we have better prepared coalition forces for the conflicts after "Major Combat" ended?

Personally, if I don't have a better idea, I try not to criticize.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[TheAnvil 0]

Military backed off a bit? Perhaps the concept of 'civilian control' eludes you. Backing off of an enemy of the sort faced in Iraq is not a smart move under any circumstances US forces are currently facing.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

Have you ever considered that if the millatry backed off a bit the diplomats might be able to do their job alot quicker and the troops would be able to come home alot sooner?

Have you ever considered that the other side doesn't have any diplomats and isn't interested in any peaceful solution other than 100% what they want? Unless you want to let our combat leaders talk it out with their combat leaders, you would not be talking with equals.

Quote

After the fighting comes the talking, instead of escalating into a war without end, why not cut to the chase and sort out the peace?

You left something out.

After winning the fighting comes the talking. If no one has won, there isn't a whole lot to talk about.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[billvon 2,471]

>You remind me of the people who lost us the war in Vietnam.

Joining the blame-America crowd?

[meltdown 0]

Have you ever considered that if the millatry backed off a bit the diplomats might be able to do their job alot quicker and the troops would be able to come home alot sooner? After the fighting comes the talking, instead of escalating into a war without end, why not cut to the chase and sort out the peace?
_____________________________________________
Maybe we should take the Chamberlain "peace in our time" approach and just give up? The diplomats can surely get the job done. There's no need for war, ever. We just need to get together and sing Kumbayah. Oh wait, you need TWO willing parties to negotiate. Forgot about that.

[Kennedy 0]

ok, I really do have to get ready for work, but I couldn't pass this one up.

Bill you know I respect the NV for their tenacity and ability to conquer adversity. However, the fact remains the war was lost here at home.

And you of all people should know blaming certain Americans is not the same as joinging the 'blame america first' crowd.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Skyrad 0]

Really? Thats exactly what the British forces have done when provoked by the Iraqi millita. Defend, back off to contain and then diffuse. Does it work? Look at the situation in general in the British sectors compared to the US held areas. Disproportionate use of force (ie: Tanks and Hellicopter gunships in residential areas) plays into the hand of the insurgents and with every death of a non combatant strengthens the resistence. As for the insurgents not having diplomats that is nonsence and shows a lack of cultural understanding of the people you are currently waging war against.
As far as a solution goes, take a step back and learn from the way the British police and govern in Iraq. We learnt to do this over a very long period of time and our forces are the best in the world at counter insurgence warfare. Why reinvent the wheel? Example: The US Sappers had no knowledge of how to deal with culvert bombs and other IEDs. So what did they do? Ask the Brits who've been dealingf with a terrorist threat for over 35 years? No they went to old manuals on booby traps from Vietnam. Why reinvent the wheel?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[billvon 2,471]

>Unless you want to let our combat leaders talk it out with their
>combat leaders, you would not be talking with equals.

And the best way to accomplish that, of course, is to kill their combat leaders. Then the conversation will go exactly how we want it to go, and there will be no need for messy negotiation.

>After winning the fighting comes the talking. If no one has won,
> there isn't a whole lot to talk about.

And if you do win, there aren't a whole lot of combat leaders to talk to. A clean solution, but not one I'd support.

[billvon 2,471]

>I'm done arguing, but the your position resembles that of the people
> who lost us that war. There is something to be learned from that.

And your position resembles the position that led us to lose over 50,000 US soldiers fighting a war we didn't need to fight; a war based on a lie. I hope that we do not repeat the mistakes of history.

[TheAnvil 0]

Your inability to comprehend different situations in conjunction with your lack of knowledge of what the military is actually doing AND your shift of topic astounds me on so many different levels the vernacular lacks sufficient depth to describe it.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 2,471]

>And you of all people should know blaming certain Americans is
>not the same as joinging the 'blame america first' crowd.

I don't think it is either; yet most right-wingers accuse anyone critical of the administration's policies of "blaming america."

[jumper03 0]

Quote

the vernacular lacks sufficient depth to describe it.

I'm stunned....Vinny at a loss for words to describe something? whew...must be baaaaad.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[Skyrad 0]

LOL............ Thats funny!
(I was also attempting to respond to Kennedy as well) LOL....

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Gravitymaster 0]

My Diplomatic Solution:

"You in there (Fallujahnese). This is the U.S. Military. Drop your weapons and come out with your hands up. You have 15 minutes to comply".

After that we allow any residents of the city to come out single file with hands up. They will be checked for weapons and allowed to stay in a temporary refuge camp.

"This is the U.S. Military, again. This is your last chance to come out with your hands up. If you fail to surrender we are coming in after you. Nobody will be left alive".