For Kerry, or against Bush

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

I will vote for Kerry. I do not think he's AS evil as Bush. I didn't bother to vote last time, and look where it got us And, regardless of what kind of tax break i'm getting, i'd rather be proud of the leader of the country in which I live (I don't know that Kerry will be the one to make it so, but might as well give someone else a chance since Bush won't be!). And, I hope that we do pull out of Iraq. Maybe not... there may still be WMDs, right? Plus, all the Iraqis aren't dead yet... so there is still work to be done I suppose.

As far as serving in this war. I'd sooner go to jail if that is what it took. I will not fight for something I don't believe in.

Angela.

[Kennedy 0]

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And, I hope that we do pull out of Iraq.

Right, let's throw the country to the wolves. There's a good idea. Let's hand it over to the fundamentalists, the terrorists, etc. Wonderful idea.

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Plus, all the Iraqis aren't dead yet... so there is still work to be done I suppose

That is probably the most ignorant, moronic, idiotic, numbskulled statement I have read in a very long time.

You hear about bombings killing marines, and marines killing peopel that attack them. What about the Iraqis being targeted by the bombers? The ones who are trying to help rebuild their country, infrastructure, police, army, etc. They are being attacked as well. Have you EVER considered that just MAYBE not ALL Iraqis are against us, and maybe those mercenaries crossing from Iran have something to do with the continued fighting? Or does Dan Rather provide the majority of your opinions?

I cannot believe you have the gall to say our armed forces are there on an extremination mission. Your statements disgust me.

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[billvon 2,464]

>Right, let's throw the country to the wolves. There's a good idea.
> Let's hand it over to the fundamentalists, the terrorists, etc.
> Wonderful idea.

The Libertarian Party is committed to America's heritage of freedom:
individual liberty and personal responsibility
a free-market economy of abundance and prosperity
a foreign policy of non-intervention, peace, and free trade.

[Kennedy 0]

Yeah, they would've against the idea being involved in Iraq. Problem is, we've been "involved" since Gulf War One. (military presence and missions never ceased)

They would not be for the idea of dropping everything and running, they just wouldn't do it again.

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[billvon 2,464]

>They would not be for the idea of dropping everything and running,
> they just wouldn't do it again.

So are you saying that had a libertarian been elected in 2000, we would not have invaded Iraq? (in your opinion of course.)

[Kennedy 0]

My guess is that they/he would have tried to pull our forces out of the area, including Kuwait, Saudi, and Iraq.

I VERY HIGHLY doubt we would have gone to war, though I haven't seen everything a president would have seen. I also don't know who the LP candidate was, so I can't make sound judgments as to what his personal reaction would have been.

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[Ron 7]

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And I hope those of you who are planning on voting for Bush are okay with being lied to over and over by an administration as corrupt as his

You have not shown any lies...And I'd rathe have Bush than a guy like Kerry how does everything for political power..Including agreeing with BOTH sides of issues.

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Also, if you are voting for Bush and between the ages of 18-26 whether you are in the military or not, I hope you are ready to go off to war because that is exactly where he intends to send you.

Problem is you don't know WHAT Kerry is going to do with you...He says whatever is popular at that second.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

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You have not shown any lies...And I'd rathe have Bush than a guy like Kerry how does everything for political power..Including agreeing with BOTH sides of issues.

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Well where would you like me to start? I think that by knowing darn well there were never any weapons of mass destruction and because Bush knew he somehow needed to find a way to gain public support to go to war with Iraq, he publicized and propagandized that we were at risk from Saddam's WMDs for the purpose of trying to control and capitalize on the oil in the Middle East, etc. etc. etc. That is the start of a big enough lie to piss me off.

This war was based on greed and power. Granted Saddam should have been taken out and maybe as the world's only superpower we should have led that battle (with the support of the UN and help from the rest of the world primarily because he was an immoral dictator) but the way George Bush went about doing it was WRONG. It was a very BAD choice. He went on World Television broadcasting his Countdown to War, giving Iraq and Saddam a time limit to relinquish their "weapons of mass destruction" before we started bombing the hell out of them. And when David Kay resigns from head of the National Securities Council after stating there was no imminent threat and our intelligence finds there never were any WMDs...

Ooops!

Sorry, but like I said in my earlier post. Go ahead and vote for Bush. But don't be surprised and don't say I didn't tell you so when you get sent off to war and more bodies come home in body bags cause this war isn't going to end anytime soon. In fact it just got worse. We're already up to almost 2,000 dead people. And go ahead and believe Bush again when he said he plans on this all being over with in June. If we pull out by June, we have probably created a more dangerous situation then there was to begin with.

Furthermore maybe you can explain to me why we are still sending so many of our National Guard soldiers to Iraq and they are being told that they can expect to be away from their families for at least 2 years? There are obviously still some major contradictions going on with President Bush and his administration.

America stood behind it's president during a time when we were attacked and made to feel vulnerable, not something a strong and powerful nation like America handles very well. It was the perfect opportunity for Bush to appeal to public emotion and convince us that going to war with Iraq was what was necessary to protect and serve "OUR" country and our country's best interests. Point blank, we were lied to.

Answer me this, why were and are we so focused on the "terrorist" Saddam Hussein and fighting over in Iraq as a priority when Osama Bin Laden is most likely somewhere near the Afghanistan/Pakistan border? Furthermore ... WE CAUGHT SADDAM. Why are we sending so many more troops over there?

All I can say is wake up people!

***
Problem is you don't know WHAT Kerry is going to do with you...He says whatever is popular at that second.

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Well I can tell you what Bush has in store for the American people. Just look up Bills HR 163 and S 89. Read about the $28 million dollars which has already been added to the 2004 Selective Service System to prepare for the military draft as early as June 15, 2005 (after the election). Read about the "Smart Border Declaration" signed by Canada's Minister of Foreign Affairs, John Manley and U.S. Homeland Security Director, Gov. Tom Ridge. This is to design an effective border patrol system so that anyone trying to flee the country to dodge the draft will be stopped or end up in Levenworth.

You may be asking yourself who is the lesser of two evils? We already know that Bush is a deceptive liar who didn't even make it into office fairly, why not give someone else a try?

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

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[Ron 7]

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Well where would you like me to start? I think that by knowing darn well there were never any weapons of mass destruction and because Bush knew he somehow needed to find a way to gain public support to go to war with Iraq, he publicized and propagandized that we were at risk from Saddam's WMDs for the purpose of trying to control and capitalize on the oil in the Middle East, etc. etc. etc. That is the start of a big enough lie to piss me off.

You have PROOF he lied? Or are you just lying? Cause Like I have said before if you can PROVE he lied...Then I'll do what I can to impeach him...And unless you can PROVE it...Then when you say he lied...You are lying.

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America stood behind it's president during a time when we were attacked and made to feel vulnerable, not something a strong and powerful nation like America handles very well. It was the perfect opportunity for Bush to appeal to public emotion and convince us that going to war with Iraq was what was necessary to protect and serve "OUR" country and our country's best interests. Point blank, we were lied to.

Again got PROOF he lied...Or are you lying?

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This is to design an effective border patrol system so that anyone trying to flee the country to dodge the draft will be stopped or end up in Levenworth.

Good send the chicken shit slimeball fuckers to jail.

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We already know that Bush is a deceptive liar who didn't even make it into office fairly,

Several different people have counted those ballots...And they all said the same thing..Bush won..Get over it.

How about them Dems trying to throw out the military votes huh? As a military guy that almost didn't get my vote counted I think THAT was Bull Shit.

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why not give someone else a try?

Cause Kerry will do whatever it takes to secure himself more power....Kerry has tried to follow in the footsteps of his hero JFK....I would bet Kerry will not stop the Iraq situation..

And quite frankly I don't trust Dems when it comes to matters of National Security...Clinton fucked up really well by ignoring SH and OBL....If he had done his job all of this would not have happend.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[boudy 0]

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George Bush will get my vote when pigs fly.

John Kerry "will get my vote when pigs fly."

So, you're saying if I look up and see a formation of hogs flappin around, the presidential election will still be a dead heat, except the hard core will now be voting for their opponent?

[Kennedy 0]

naw, when pigs fly the libertarians will win.


dear God, let me see a formation of airborne swine before November....

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[b1jercat 0]

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Well where would you like me to start? I think that by knowing darn well there were never any weapons of mass destruction and because Bush knew he somehow needed to find a way to gain public support to go to war with Iraq, he publicized and propagandized that we were at risk from Saddam's WMDs for the purpose of trying to control and capitalize on the oil in the Middle East, etc. etc. etc. That is the start of a big enough lie to piss me off.

You have PROOF he lied? Or are you just lying? Cause Like I have said before if you can PROVE he lied...Then I'll do what I can to impeach him...And unless you can PROVE it...Then when you say he lied...You are lying.

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America stood behind it's president during a time when we were attacked and made to feel vulnerable, not something a strong and powerful nation like America handles very well. It was the perfect opportunity for Bush to appeal to public emotion and convince us that going to war with Iraq was what was necessary to protect and serve "OUR" country and our country's best interests. Point blank, we were lied to.

Again got PROOF he lied...Or are you lying?

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This is to design an effective border patrol system so that anyone trying to flee the country to dodge the draft will be stopped or end up in Levenworth.

Good send the chicken shit slimeball fuckers to jail.

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We already know that Bush is a deceptive liar who didn't even make it into office fairly,

Several different people have counted those ballots...And they all said the same thing..Bush won..Get over it.

How about them Dems trying to throw out the military votes huh? As a military guy that almost didn't get my vote counted I think THAT was Bull Shit.

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why not give someone else a try?

Cause Kerry will do whatever it takes to secure himself more power....Kerry has tried to follow in the footsteps of his hero JFK....I would bet Kerry will not stop the Iraq situation..

And quite frankly I don't trust Dems when it comes to matters of National Security...Clinton fucked up really well by ignoring SH and OBL....If he had done his job all of this would not have happend.

------------------------------------------------------------------And quite frankly I don't trust Dems when it comes to matters of National Security...

You know Ron that is just a fantastic statement considering everything that Ronnie Raygun did to coddle SH and OBL in the 80's, not to mention the
fine job Bush1 did letting SH go in the 90's.
For your information the biggest terrorist attack on American soil in history, wasn't on Clinton's watch.

Jerry

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

***You have PROOF he lied? Or are you just lying? Cause Like I have said before if you can PROVE he lied...Then I'll do what I can to impeach him...And unless you can PROVE it...Then when you say he lied...You are lying.

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Well Ron, I don't need to lie about Bush's political scandals you see because I read. I read beyond the media garbage spewed out to keep the majority blissfully ignorant who are fine to keep believing the propaganda. Even though I didn't vote for Bush, he had my support to go to war with Iraq at the time and I felt he and Colin Powell were strong leaders doing their jobs and looking out for "America's" best interests. You know what? So did most of America. Why? Because we had just been attacked and the either misinformed or politically corrupted media led us to believe that we needed to stop Saddam from his weapons of mass destruction and continued terrorism because we were at risk.

It really isn't difficult to get to the bottom of the truth if you are willing to take the time to research, learn and read. To seek out the information which may not necessarily be the easiest to obtain (the kind you buy in Newsweek or your local newsstand). But a little bit of time and research on your own and some common sense can do wonders to show what our government is up to. Frankly, I have had enough and I am angry that I supported this war when it was initiated. I supported it because I too was duped into believing Bush and his administration. So was Blair and he too will suffer the consequences with his country. Now if you need some sources to read to be able to come to your own conclusion that Bush is a big fat liar only interested in his own power I can and will gladly supply you with those. But if you think I am making all of this up as a lie to try and prove or get something out of it, WRONG. I have nothing to prove, nothing to gain from stating my opinion and the facts which I have read myself in this forum, other than the hope that others who read these posts will not just aptly follow the herd. I am hoping they will seek out the information for themselves. America has a problem with apathy, especially the younger crowd when many of the decisions made will target and affect that very group of citizens. Many of those people are posting right now in these forums. Some are my friends and I only hope people will try to find the truth for themselves. It seems so minor, just one vote, just one voice at election time, but it is the only power they own which may prevent their own disaster.

I have said in other posts and forums, I am not going to war. I am too old (30) and am the last surviving parent of my only child. But many of my friends are between 18-26 who post here and it may not have hit home for them yet but it has for many American families and it has for me as my roommate who is in the Reserves is being deployed over to Iraq and has to leave her 3 year old son for a minimum of 2 years with the Guard. The only thing I want to say is THINK.

Peace and Blue skies.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

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[NoShitThereIWas 0]

***This is to design an effective border patrol system so that anyone trying to flee the country to dodge the draft will be stopped or end up in Levenworth.

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Good send the chicken shit slimeball fuckers to jail.

Really? How about sending a 24 year old single Mom who was getting ready to graduate college in one more year to start a career she worked so hard to achieve by attending undergrad and graduate school for 6 years. You are telling me that you think it is fair that before she is able to graduate our President should have the right to say to her, guess what, you are not going to be allowed to finish your education and fulfill your dreams ... you are allowed to finish this semester and then we are sending you to Iraq. You were close to getting your degree? WE DON'T CARE. You have a child to raise and a family who needs you? WE DON'T CARE. You are not in agreement with this war or that it is justified? WE DON'T CARE. See you in Iraq.

Furthermore, you can call me a chicken shit slimeball fucker if you please but if it were me, I would run for the hills before they sent me or do whatever it took to stay home with my family. If I fit into your description of chicken shit slimeball fucker, so be it. I'd rather be that than come back home to my three year old daughter in a body bag. I would tell Bush to go to hell. My three year old daughter needs me more than Iraq does.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

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[Kennedy 0]

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You know Ron that is just a fantastic statement considering everything that Ronnie Raygun did to coddle SH and OBL in the 80's, not to mention the fine job Bush1 did letting SH go in the 90's.

OK Mr. Revisionist Historian, you might want to check your facts again. Reagan didn't 'coddle' SH and OBL, he had them doing our dirty work for us! We supported one against the Russians, and the other against the Iranians.

Maybe it wasn't a good idea to help them out, but don't act like RR was aiding and abetting the enemy. However, by the 90s, SH and OBL were obvious enemies. Have you conveniently forgotten OBL being offered up to Clinton? Or Clinton giving SH reprieve after reprieve? Your double standards are showing.

ps - would you have supported removing SH from power following the Gulf War? Or are you just creating another "damned if you do, damned if you don't, and double damned if you're republican"

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For your information the biggest terrorist attack on American soil in history, wasn't on Clinton's watch.

So if the Madrid train bombing had happened five days later, you would've said it wasn't on PM Aznar's watch and blamed PM Zapatero?

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[Ron 7]

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quite frankly I don't trust Dems when it comes to matters of National Security...

You know Ron that is just a fantastic statement considering everything that Ronnie Raygun did to coddle SH and OBL in the 80's,

Which helped destroy the USSR.

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not to mention the
fine job Bush1 did letting SH go in the 90's.

At the request of the UN and the world to not flatten the place...Then the UN placed sanctions against him that Clinton ignored...Good job Bill!

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For your information the biggest terrorist attack on American soil in history, wasn't on Clinton's watch.

You think it was all planned in 8 mths? Nope, it was planned while Billy was in office. As was the Cole, the first WTC attack, I could go on......Gee and Billy did nothing about it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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Well Ron, I don't need to lie about Bush's political scandals you see because I read

Maybe not enough.

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Even though I didn't vote for Bush, he had my support to go to war with Iraq at the time and I felt he and Colin Powell were strong leaders doing their jobs and looking out for "America's" best interests. You know what? So did most of America. Why?

Because it was needed.

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Frankly, I have had enough and I am angry that I supported this war when it was initiated

So you feel bad, and now you are changing sides? No wonder you like Kerry. (Atleast you can admit you changed sides however)

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I have nothing to prove, nothing to gain from stating my opinion and the facts which I have read myself in this forum, other than the hope that others who read these posts will not just aptly follow the herd. I am hoping they will seek out the information for themselves

Yet you show no PROOF, and just speak the Dem partyline..Whats your source www.kerry.com?

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my roommate who is in the Reserves is being deployed over to Iraq and has to leave her 3 year old son for a minimum of 2 years with the Guard.

She didn't mind being in the gaurd while she was collecting a paycheck. She should not mind actually SERVING. Otherwise she should have never joined...It's that apathy you talk about...Its OK to join up for the collage, and the money, but God forbid you actually have to defend the country like you said you would.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[b1jercat 0]

Maybe it wasn't a good idea to help them out, but don't act like RR was aiding and abetting the enemy. However, by the 90s, SH and OBL were obvious enemies. Have you conveniently forgotten OBL being offered up to Clinton? Or Clinton giving SH reprieve after reprieve? Your double standards are showing.


---------------------------------------------------------------

All things considered RR did let the genie out of the bottle, Most American would agree that Bush1 had the support of the American people to go after SH in Gulf 1. I'm sure he had ample opportunity to go for OBL as well. Why didn't Clinton get OBL, I don't know. OTOH SH was doing fine stewing in his own juices and never was a threat.

[Ron 7]

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All things considered RR did let the genie out of the bottle, Most American would agree that Bush1 had the support of the American people to go after SH in Gulf

Yeah but not the international community.
But are you saying you would have been ok with US troops dying THEN, but not NOW? What changed? SH was still a slimeball. He was still acting like an ass.

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OTOH SH was doing fine stewing in his own juices and never was a threat.

Tell that to the families of the victums of the suicide bombers he helped support. Remember he was giving 25,000 to each family that had a son blow up innocent people.

And of course there was the tourture of his own people...

But I guess they don't count since they don't vote here huh?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Kennedy 0]

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All things considered RR did let the genie out of the bottle

I'm not going to argue with you that US foreign support tends to come back and bite us in the ass (groups, not countries). It does.

But would you prefer that Afghanistan be etched in the American psyche right next to Vietnam and Korea? Would you want US troops fighting Russian troops (turn the cold war hot)? Or would you rather we stand back the Russians mop the floor with the muhajadeen because they were not equipped to fight?

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Most American would agree that Bush1 had the support of the American people to go after SH in Gulf 1.

He had support for tossing SH out of Kuwait and trouncing his military. He would not have had much support for invading Iraq (beyond air strikes). And we would have seen the same body counts then as we are facing now.

And if you blame GB1 for not going after SH, why not blame Clinton for the same thing? I think more flights were flown during Clinton's administration than under GB1.


and you didn't answer my question about the Madrid bombing...

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[NoShitThereIWas 0]

***
Maybe not enough.

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No offense but I would say if you haven't the faintest idea what I am talking about you haven't read near as much as I have on this subject.

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Even though I didn't vote for Bush, he had my support to go to war with Iraq at the time and I felt he and Colin Powell were strong leaders doing their jobs and looking out for "America's" best interests. You know what? So did most of America. Why?

Because it was needed.

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Because of terrorism like the Bush administration claimed? Maybe you should go back and read just the facts ma'am.

***Frankly, I have had enough and I am angry that I supported this war when it was initiated

So you feel bad, and now you are changing sides? No wonder you like Kerry. (Atleast you can admit you changed sides however)

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This is just a statement of fallacy. No, I never changed sides, I open-mindedly trusted Bush and gave him a chance to prove that he was worthy. Bottom line is that he failed my trust and the trust of Americans and the rest of the world.

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I have nothing to prove, nothing to gain from stating my opinion and the facts which I have read myself in this forum, other than the hope that others who read these posts will not just aptly follow the herd. I am hoping they will seek out the information for themselves

Yet you show no PROOF, and just speak the Dem partyline..Whats your source www.kerry.com?

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Here are some sources for you to go do some more reading:

http://search.epnet.com/direct.asp?an=9205420&db=afh
Blood, Oil & Iraq
Newsweek;3/10/2003

"American Apocalypse"
Nation;12/22/2003

"War on Truth"
New Statesman; 8/4/2003
http://web10.epnet.com/DeliveryPrintSave.asp?tb=1&_ug=dbs=afh=fic=2=sid=5AB328D...

"Making the Case"
U.S. News and World Report;2/10/2003

"Bush and Blair deceived us about the reasons for going to war, but they deceived themselves about its impact on Iraq"
New Statesman;8/4/2003

http://www.vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/01/105146.php
"US Preparing for Military Draft in Spring 2005"

http://www.sss.gov/perfplan_fy2004.html

http://www/informationclearinghouse.info/article5146.htm

http://www.hslda.org/Legislation/National/2003/S89/default.asp?PrinterFriendly=True

"Bush and Blair squeak through."
National Review; 2/23/2004
http://search.epnet.com/direct.asp?an=12208742&db=afh

"World support for war recedes."
USA Today; Sept. 18, 2002

Let me know if you need any more

Edited to add: I realize I suck at the in response to/quote things. I am also not that great at using the underline bold markers here on DZ.com so I hope you can make sense of what I am trying to relay in my sources. And I am not the best bibliography maker but that should give you some sources to start with anyway ...

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

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[NoShitThereIWas 0]

I agree with both you and BillVon ...

IMO, if Clinton were in office we would not have gone to war with Iraq; not the way we did or for the "real" reasons we did. If something needed to be done with Saddam that would have been tackled potentially as a side issue. I also do not think Clinton would have just sat back and let 9/11 slide either. He would have gone after the "RESPONSIBLE" party. I simply do not know enough about Gore to be able to make any kind of judgment whatsoever about what his response would have been to 9/11. I remember Clinton's response to the Oklahoma City bombing. In my opinion, that situation was handled very successfully. In the Ok City attack, eventhough the attacker was one of our own (American), it was not known until the responsible people were found and the "legitimate" investigation took place. The responsible parties were found, prosecuted and punished so that they would never be able to accomplish something like that again. As President of the US, when all that turmoil happened following the Ok City bombings, Democrat Bill Clinton handled that situation with poise, control and without lying to the American people.

I can tell you one thing about GWB ... That guy was just waiting for the opportune time to go in and finish what daddy started and HE did not care or think of the consequences of lying to the American people or the rest of the world. (I'd like to say that Bush lied to the very people who elected him President, but he didn't even acquire his Presidency democratically, he pulled some big political strings).

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[Kennedy 0]

Just so it's clear, you're not agreeing with me on much of anything.

I was discussing with Bill what a Libertarian President might have done.

We already KNOW for FACT that Clinton was not interested in going after Bin Laden after AQ killed Americans and attacked American interests. Just look at Clinton's response after the Embassy attacks all over Africa, or the World trade Center bombings (van bombings, not plane attacks). Clinton turned down three, yes THREE opportunities to sink his claws into OBL. He turned them down.


As to the timeline of Gulf War One through Two, don't forget the entire world supported that and Clinton was unable to orchestrate an exit strategy. What would you have done?

Personally, I try not to criticize if I can't think of a better option.

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[Ron 7]

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I also do not think Clinton would have just sat back and let 9/11 slide either.

Why not he let the van bombing of the WTC slide.

He let the USS Cole bombing slide.

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I'd like to say that Bush lied to the very people who elected him President, but he didn't even acquire his Presidency democratically, he pulled some big political strings

Recount after recount by different organizations has show that he WON. I find it funny that people keep bringing this up.

And as for pulling strings, how about Gore trying to throw out all military absinetee ballots?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[turtlespeed 212]

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Recount after recount by different organizations has show that he WON. I find it funny that people keep bringing this up.

If you lie to yourself as often as the dems do - you have no choice but to hold the lies to be truths. It's called brainwashing.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun