Euthanasia

[soilman 0]

Amazon writes

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One of the primary things opponents bring up is that with pain relieving drugs they can negate the pain.. Having a LITTLE personal knowledge about pain...which I have learned to live with... is even with really good drugs it never really goes away. You can dull it but overall the medications dull YOU..Its a quality of life that slips away when all you can do is EXIST. I would hope when I no longer can enjoy life and if I was in severe pain that could only be dulled by harsh drugs then the medical profession could help me to pass in a dignified manner rather than FORCING me to exist in such a state.

I am for limited legalization of assisted suicide,allowing limited assistance without it being against the law to assist, however I tend to disagree with your above comment about pain relievers.

I have fairly extensive personal experience with opioid pain relievers, and I believe that many, but not all, people experiencing unbelievably awful pain, who want to die because of their pain -- they could have a very greatly improved quality of life if they were only given adequate amounts of pain relievers, and that very often such people simply don't get enough pain relievers, since many doctors still have opiophobia, and there is also the existence of general societal opiophobia.

Opioids can completely eliminate pain, in many cases, without making the patient dull. Not in all cases, but in many cases. I am saying this from personal experience, tho because of opiophobia, and the scorn that opioid users receive from opiophobes, I don't want to go into detail here. You have my email address.

Briefly, I have pain that can, at times, only be managed with strong opioids in large doses, and I have a fair quality of life. I can work 30 or so hours per week. I can jump out of airplanes. Sometimes the pain is "dulled." Other times it is completely removed, without noticable side effects -- unless you consider suddenly feeling like mowing the lawn, or mopping the kitchen floor, as soon as the pain goes away, to be a "side effect." Never am I severely "dulled" in general.

Tho I don't need high doses every day, even during the times when I need high doses, I can still function. I can certainly sit in front of my computer, wide awake, and use message boards.

I can work at desk jobs. I wouldn't want to be, say, an air traffic controller, or a firefighter, because the pain itself, should I have a difficult to control exacerbation while on the job, would put other people in jeapardy, but I would be capable of learning and doing air traffic control. And of course there are plenty of things I can do without putting anyone at risk if I should have an exacerbation that temporarily slows me down, like for example being an accountant or bookkeeper, or an airplane mechanic.

Euthanasia simply means a killing that is a good thing. Assisted suicide is a subset of euthanasia. I don't think we should legalize all kinds of euthansia, but assisted suicide, in some cases, with controls to prevent abuse -- probably we should in some cases.

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Animal husbandry may not be necessary. We can maintain soil quality, for plant husbandry, with green manures and cover crops.

[peregrinerose 0]

When I get to the point that I can no longer enjoy life and truly live, whether due to mental or physical reasons, I will not exist. My meds will stop, I will be a DNR, and I will die in my own home on my own terms. I'd prefer medically assisted suicide due to the more swift and painless option, but will find other ways as needed. My husband and I feel the same way about this and have agreed that no matter how much it kills us to let the other go, we will support each other's feelings on the matter.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[eeneR 1]

A few years back I watched my mom suffer and die from Lung Cancer. I am very much in favor of euthanasia in cases where the patient is going to die...Im not talking in a year or 2, im talking when they say 3 months...etc.

My mom was Diagnosed in Sept of 98, they tried everything they could...then in april of 1999 they said that is it....nothing was working and it was still progressing at an alarming rate. The cancer had now progressed into her spine . They say it could be anywhere from 2 weeks to 3 months before she would die. The first month after bringing her home she was ok....however in significant pain she was on a full time morphine drip, and all kinds of other meds just to make her comfortable....well as the pain progressed the dosages had to increase, the second month was a bad one, the pain was unbelievable, and she was miserable just sitting in a bed in her dining room..by the end of the second month, starting the third month, they moved her into a hospice unit....now completely lethargic, weighing about 70 lbs....the next month, she lost what was left of her strength, she couldnt even cough up fleghm...she had have her throat sucked 4-5 times a day to clear it...she could barely move...and when she finally did die...she weighed 54 lbs

Less then one year earlier she was 120lbs...a 4'11" ball of fire...watching her progress to nothing in under a year? watching her suffer thru the last few months was soo hard. Why? why be stuck sitting there a veggie? So we can have the insurance co pay the $600 a day or what ever?

When quality of life is gone....I dont want to be sitting there a veggie...

When there is definitely NO WAY out....when the battle is over...and there is nothing left that can be done with all quality of life gone...I think yes...it should be ok, dont make people suffer.

On the point of Suicide vs Euthanasia. Depression IS a treatable disease. I do not think suicide is a way out for depression....I do NOT think that Depression should be grounds for euthanasia....or with any other disease that has not COMPLETELY destroyed any possible amount of quality of life.

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[PhillyKev 0]

Don't you have problems with becoming tolerant of the drug and needing higher doses to get the same effect? Or do you use it only occassionally? If it's the latter, what about people who need it constantly?

[freeflybella 0]

Serious and innocent question here.

Why should anyone (sick or healthy) be legally required to stay alive?

Winsor mentioned that suicide should remain illegal to help prevent those who would from killing themselves. But why do we need to prevent it? Is it because of the aftermath? The body disposal, the children possibly left parentless, the estate and money owed. etc.?

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[PhillyKev 0]

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why do we need to prevent it?

Well, for someone who has put a lot of thought and planning into it and has made a decision while clear headed, I don't think it should. But it's a permanent act that can't be taken back and many people take that action based on spur of the moment desire to stop feeling whatever they are feeling that moment. I think those people should be prevented from doing it if possible until they get past that moment and have a chance to re-evaluate their decision. How you tell the difference? I don't know.

[soilman 0]

PhillyKev writes

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Don't you have problems with becoming tolerant of the drug and needing higher doses to get the same effect?

No. Most people on medicaly managed opioids do not develop a tolerance, or develop a tolerance only very slowly. Some seem to develop a rapid tolerance. They try to screen those people out, with questions about drug abuse history, before starting. It is a small minority. Perhaps I have developed a tolerance to feeling high, and to respiratory depression -- but apparently I have not developed a tolerance to feeling pain relief. I've been taking the same amount per month, for about 2 years now. Up just a little from the amount I took per month for 3 years before that.

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Or do you use it only occassionally? If it's the latter, what about people who need it constantly?

I've read that people that need the same dose every day, usually do manage to not develop a tolerance.

Personally, I hate opioids. I try to take a few as possible. But I prefer taking them to sitting around, like a lump, doing nothing, not even able to watch television -- due to agonizing pain. If I am doing something that doesn't require a lot of concentration, like washing my clothes, I tolerate some pain for awhile. If I need to do something that requires concentration and pain interferes with my ability to concentrate, like filling out income tax forms, then I take more medicine.

I don't get high from them. I don't perceive any obvious changes in conciousness from them. While tests may show slowing of my reflexes, I don't have any subjective sensation of being any less alert or responsive. Since pain itself interferes with my subjective sense of alertness, the net effect is to make me feel more alert, not less alert.

I feel better if I take NSAIDs, instead, but opioids are physically less damaging than NSAID's which are almost guaranteed to cause stomach ulcers eventually. Acetaminophen, tho it is only for the most minor pain, is almost sure to cause liver damage if taken for many years. You can take certain, but not all, opioids, for 50 years, with no discernable organ or tissue damage. This does not mean there is no damage, but it isn't the kind of dramatic damage you see with maybe just 5 or 10 years of taking NSAID's -- which don't work as well anyway. Not that I didn't take these for a long time, but I had to stop due to stomach ulcers.

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Animal husbandry may not be necessary. We can maintain soil quality, for plant husbandry, with green manures and cover crops.

[Ron 7]

I think it should be legal...As long as YOU ask for it.

I don't think that you should be able to choose for anyone else.

If you find out you have cancer and you are a gonner...I think it should be fine to allow euthanasia.

I also think suicide should be legal anyway. If you don't want to live, its your right to end your life. Why would I force you to live if you don't want to?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[freeflybella 0]

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many people take that action based on spur of the moment desire to stop feeling whatever they are feeling that moment

Is it spur of the moment? Or is it a desire - however long it may last - that hopefully will pass? And by preventing suicide we are giving them the 'opportunity' to let it pass?

I understand helping someone who is need of help. Help him off the ledge, help him get treatment or assistance in some way to better cope with whatever he's dealing with. You can do that whether it's legal or not.

But if someone doesn't want to be a part of this world - or this life, why would we (society as a whole) require them to stay?

edited: not arguing with you, phillykev - just exploring other questions I have.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[PhillyKev 0]

I agree with you. I'm just saying that many people feel that way, then later they don't and are glad they didn't take that action. Once the deed is done there's no going back.

[turtlespeed 212]

It is still their choice - permanent or not.

Noone should have the control over anothers wishes - it's not like they are going to regret it. The financials and all other arangements should be required to be in order and complete before the act can be completed. That way, no State or Gov't agency need be involved, noone is inconvienienced, all goes according to contract.

Suicide - should - be legal - But guidelines and requirements should be met first.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rehmwa 2]

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I also think suicide should be legal anyway. If you don't want to live, its your right to end your life. Why would I force you to live if you don't want to?

With this law, you can't even punish the successful criminals and they can't be repeat offenders. So what's the point in having this type of law? However, the lawbreakers are easier to catch after they commit the crime.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[PhillyKev 0]

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Suicide - should - be legal - But guidelines and requirements should be met first.

That, I agree with. Again, all I'm saying is that if someone on a spur of the moment decides to kill themselves, as a compassionate society we should try to prevent them from making an irreversible, spontaneous decision based on emotion. But if they have put thought and planning into it, I don't see any reason why anyone else's opinion matters.

[Casurf1978 0]

Same thing happened to my grandmother, although she had pancreatic cancer. I was too young to remember, but my mom said it was horrible for her to watch her mom the last 2 months.

I think it should be legal. Everyone should have the right to die with dignity, especially if you have a terminal disease.

[Ron 7]

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That, I agree with. Again, all I'm saying is that if someone on a spur of the moment decides to kill themselves, as a compassionate society we should try to prevent them from making an irreversible, spontaneous decision based on emotion.

Again, I think its a person right to end their life if they want....Why should society get involved?

Society should stop meddling in other peoples buisness.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Zenister 0]

isnt attempted suicide illegal? as has been pointed out theres not alot you can do to 'reform or punish' a suicide..

It is your life, possibly the only one you have, no one should tell you when, where, how to end it, anymore than they should tell you how to live it.

Suicide can be a clear rational decision for some, we may not agree with their decision, but it is their decision..

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[PhillyKev 0]

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Society should stop meddling in other peoples buisness.

What if it's a teenager depressed over not getting asked to the prom, with wild pubescent hormonal imblances, and neglective parents? Tough luck?

Well, at least I don't recall you ever claiming to be a compassionate conservative.

[Zenister 0]

teenager's under 18 don’t have the legal authority to make significant decisions about their lives....because at that point their lives are not really ‘their own’ yet...

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[freeflybella 0]

Jail the parents!

Not sure about that one. 18 is an accepted yet relatively random number for legal responsiblity. But since it's illegal now to commit suicide - what does happen to the parents? Are they held accountable in any way? I guess they're not held too accountable if their child commits murder...

Maybe they should be?

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[Zenister 0]

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But since it's illegal now to commit suicide

from the quick search i did it is Not No state has laws against suicide, attempted suicide yes, and assisting someone in suicide, but suicide itself seems legal in most states and the majority of countries..

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Lindsey 0]

I would support a person's decision for suicide if he/she were living with a terminal illness, with no hope of recovery, and no hope of relief of suffering if it were very severe. What I have difficulty with, from a budding physician's perspective, is that assisted suicide puts a doctor in the role of "assistor" only by default--because we have access to the medications. To me, the "right to die" is a philosophical or spiritual issue, not a medical one. Physiologically, the body will go through the processes that it will as our medical interventions fail. Many, many, many people suffer, and while it is our role to assist in relief of suffering, going the extra step and assisting a person with suicide is not something I would feel comfortable with in my own practice. Not because I think a person should not be allowed to die with dignity, but because it's not a role I think belongs to the physician, or one that I would want to take on.

lindsey

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[soilman 0]

Very good point Lindsey.

____________________________________
Animal husbandry may not be necessary. We can maintain soil quality, for plant husbandry, with green manures and cover crops.

[D22369 0]

Once the right to die is established then is it a right for all or just for some?
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if someone wishes to die, why would anyone have a problem with it?? I dont understand at all, we each are given our lives, that is the only thing we truly own... If I was made a quadrapalegic I would not wish to continue in this existence......selfish --yes, but its MY life...... if my arthritis(and I do have it) got to the point that daily pleasures were eclipsed by the wracking pain I should be given the choice to end my suffering..........

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Ron 7]

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isnt attempted suicide illegal? as has been pointed out theres not alot you can do to 'reform or punish' a suicide..

It is your life, possibly the only one you have, no one should tell you when, where, how to end it, anymore than they should tell you how to live it.

Suicide can be a clear rational decision for some, we may not agree with their decision, but it is their decision..

Wow we agree on something

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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What if it's a teenager depressed over not getting asked to the prom, with wild pubescent hormonal imblances, and neglective parents? Tough luck?

Teenagers are not able to do ANYTHING legally till they are 18...After that we let them vote, so in my opinion they should be allowed to make choices about their lives.

Besides people off themselves all the time. I am all for someone ending their suffering....

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Well, at least I don't recall you ever claiming to be a compassionate conservative.

Whats compasinonate about making someone suffer cause you want to make them live?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334