JWest 0 #26 November 2, 2015 sundevil777***It's one button to get into the log and one button to get into the settings. Not being able to use the technology you bought that hundreds of other people don't have issue with is practically the definition of user error, or incompetence, your pick. I completely disagree. Not only is it non-intuitive, but the manual seems to have been written by people that were too familiar with the procedure, and I'd bet they never tested the usability of the manual on people that weren't already familiar with it. Are any of them intuitive? It's unlikely that someone with no prior knowledge could pick up a N3, viso, altitrack, and know how to navigate the mines. For the viso once you learn the unlocking procedure it's pretty simple. Bottom button to access the log, center button scrolls through the perimeters, bottom and top buttons control jump number. Unlock using the middle button then hold for 5 seconds and you are in the settings. Again the center button scrolls through the settings and the top and bottom buttons change the settings. It's two buttons! How hard is it? Disclaimer, I worked in IT for a while so I may be unfair in my assessment of the average person ability to use simple technology. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 98 #27 November 3, 2015 JWest******It's one button to get into the log and one button to get into the settings. Not being able to use the technology you bought that hundreds of other people don't have issue with is practically the definition of user error, or incompetence, your pick. I completely disagree. Not only is it non-intuitive, but the manual seems to have been written by people that were too familiar with the procedure, and I'd bet they never tested the usability of the manual on people that weren't already familiar with it. Are any of them intuitive? It's unlikely that someone with no prior knowledge could pick up a N3, viso, altitrack, and know how to navigate the mines. For the viso once you learn the unlocking procedure it's pretty simple. Bottom button to access the log, center button scrolls through the perimeters, bottom and top buttons control jump number. Unlock using the middle button then hold for 5 seconds and you are in the settings. Again the center button scrolls through the settings and the top and bottom buttons change the settings. It's two buttons! How hard is it? Disclaimer, I worked in IT for a while so I may be unfair in my assessment of the average person ability to use simple technology. A few years back, I had email exchanges with Mr. "L" of L&B, and he admitted (paraphrasing) that they spent too much time on the product and not enough on the interface and manuals. He didn't come to that conclusion just from my feedback. My anecdotal experience hanging out at the DZ/talking with others tells me that the frustration is shared by many and is not related to whether a person is average or not.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JWest 0 #28 November 3, 2015 Interesting. I thought the roadmap they ship with the viso II was very useful. http://www.pcv.be/files/VISO_II_roadmap.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mathrick 2 #29 November 3, 2015 The Viso menu system is a bit silly. It's totally possible to learn it, but it's telling that I'd sometimes need to play "the Viso expert" for people who've had theirs for much longer than I've been jumping. I happen to have a knack for remembering random trivia and going through manuals several times, and I still found it difficult to figure out. Most people seem to give up and just find someone else who already knows how to do things whenever they need to do more than just turn it on. It should be hard to change your alti's settings accidentally, but Viso makes it frustrating. Also, ProTrack's lack of canopy warnings is complete bullshit. With L&B's lineup, I'm simply not allowed to have logs downloadable to a PC and canopy alarms unless I either get an alti with analogue display (don't wanna) or get two audibles. Why the hell would you make so much functionality exclusive to a specific type of display?"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JWest 0 #30 November 3, 2015 Marketing. Admittedly the first time I used my viso, I obviously didn't look at the manual or anything. I had to have someone show me how to turn it off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grantunderland 0 #31 November 3, 2015 Or as I stated, non-currency. Not everyone is like you going into the settings every other day to test some new such-and-such setting to prove to all the rest of the community how smart you are and that we've been doing it wrong forever. When I had to reset my teammate's Viso before Nationals round 1, it was "is it bottom button/bottom button, or center button, or access then center button? I can't remember and I'm more worried about doing well in round 1 vs an alti" An easy as shit menu is going to "Menu -> Settings -> Reset" or something along those lines, like an N3. Easy as shit is something I can do in the middle of a dirt dive if I haven't done it in months. A Viso menu is easy, but if you haven't gone into settings for 6-12 months, it is IMHO understandable if someone forgets how to get there, but then can set up a new viso on their own once they remember its access then center button. But give a Viso and an N3 (without manuals) to a jumper that hasn't seen either before and guess which one gets set up first. THAT's the "easy as shit" menu. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grantunderland 0 #32 November 3, 2015 Yes, it is completely possible. I still haven't read the manual for my N3, and it's fully set up with dropzones, aircraft, canopy and FF alarms with different tones. I turned on the backlight without asking anybody or reading a manual. This isn't a brand war either, to me at least. I have a Viso and N3, I like em both. I like my solo and optima as well, they're all good products from two good companies. But one has an fairly easy menu when you're used to it, and the other has easy as shit menu I learned with 20-some jumps without reading the manual. But then again, I still work in "IT" and engineer solutions for global companies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JWest 0 #33 November 3, 2015 No way am I trying to start a brand war. N3 are great alti. The main reason I didn't buy one was because at the time it didn't have a wrist mount available. I don't like hard things on top of my metacarpals. I guess I access my viso about every month to copy the data to my computer. The menu just seems like once you lean it it's pretty easy. I mean you can get to the setting using the top or bottom button. just have to hold it for five seconds after its unlocked. I used to work IT not I'm just an EIT. Could be a factor in my ability to remember technical stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andym148 2 #34 November 9, 2015 So my wife recently sent her Optima 2 back to L&B due to a fault in the unit, it would never go above 10kft on the LCD read out. During free fall it would start working again when she defended below below 10k ft, she was not too fussed as she does wear an audible in her helmet. She posted the unit back to L&B from the UK, then the trail went cold for 2-3 weeks. She couldn't get any feedback to see if her Optima had arrived at their factory, just as she was about to loose face and consider buying a new alti.... A package arrived in the post. Inside was a brand new Optima. I still don't think you can knock L&B, i hope everyone else eventually gets sorted out?At long last the light at the end of the tunell isnt an on coming train!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 98 #35 November 9, 2015 andym148So my wife recently sent her Optima 2 back to L&B due to a fault in the unit, it would never go above 10kft on the LCD read out. During free fall it would start working again when she defended below below 10k ft, she was not too fussed as she does wear an audible in her helmet. She posted the unit back to L&B from the UK, then the trail went cold for 2-3 weeks. She couldn't get any feedback to see if her Optima had arrived at their factory, just as she was about to loose face and consider buying a new alti.... A package arrived in the post. Inside was a brand new Optima. I still don't think you can knock L&B, i hope everyone else eventually gets sorted out? Optima? Do you mean Viso?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danornan 79 #36 November 9, 2015 I use and have in the past, returned one of their products. The service I received was excellent and I wish other companies has service as good. Unfortunately, many skydivers abused the great service, returning goods found or way out of warranty and to stay in business, L& B had to adjust their very liberal policies. They still make a very good product with a limited customer base compared to many other sports.Dano Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andym148 2 #37 November 17, 2015 sundevil777 ***Optima? Do you mean Viso? Yes... Doh! Ok no more gin for me...At long last the light at the end of the tunell isnt an on coming train!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites