Vigil video

[billvon 2,475]

Saw a fascinating video while at PIA. Vigil showed it to demonstrate a Vigil save. It showed a freeflyer exiting with a group and doing some sitflying. He broke off, flipped onto his belly, then deployed. He had a spinner, fought it for about ten seconds, then cut away. He was unable to find his reserve handle, and eventually the Vigil fired. From the video's perspective, the canopy had not fully decelerated him before landing; he landed very hard (enough to blank the video for a few seconds) but was not seriously injured (per the presenter.)

What was interesting was what the camera showed. He kept his cutaway handle in his hand as he grabbed his chest strap, then the reserve-cable housing, then the chest strap friction adapter - all while flying on his back. There appeared to be no attempt to get stable before deploying the reserve, and indeed a back-to-earth position may have caused a reserve PC hesitation and resulting lower-than-normal deployment. Was he doing this because he was most comfortable/familiar with flying on his back or in a sit?

It was also interesting that he kept a grip on the cutaway handle the whole time. Was that restricting his ability to find his reserve handle with his right hand?

It makes me wonder how many freeflyers might instinctively go to their backs while dealing with a problem like this. Also makes me think that perhaps hanging onto your handles is not always the best idea.

[peek 20]

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Was he doing this because he was most comfortable/familiar with flying on his back or in a sit?

In my opinion, quite possibly!

I recall a number of years ago when I had been doing a lot of sit flying. We did an AFF jump where the exit didn't go as planned.

I was thrown into a sit position, and it felt so comfortable that I didn't do anything for several seconds, and did not feel an urgency to do so.

When I later saw the video, all I could say was, "Dude, get face-to-earth and back to your student!"

[Remster 26]

Bill: do you recall if it was a fabric, or metal reserve handle?

Remster

[BKR 0]

metal

Jérôme Bunker
Basik Air Concept
www.basik.fr
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Le-Luc-France/BASIK-AIR-CONCEPT/172133350468

[Yossarian 0]

i saw that at the BPA AGM, looked like the reserve handle had come out of the pouch and gone under the MLW, didnt see how that happened though, cant remember was it a 2-handed cutaway?, i wondered why he kept his cutaway as well... the bloke on the stand was saying that a cypres wouldnt have saved him because it would have deactivated with deployment...? (not trying to start a vigil v. cypres debate, i know thats going on in other forums, but is that true?) also seems an rsl might have been a plan...

[billvon 2,475]

>bloke on the stand was saying that a cypres wouldnt have
>saved him because it would have deactivated with deployment...?

Cypreses don't deactivate with deployment. They will fire whenever a jumper exceeds about 78mph above 130 feet.

[sundevil777 94]

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the bloke on the stand was saying that a cypres wouldnt have saved him because it would have deactivated with deployment

Did that statement go unchallenged?

I think it would be good for a Vigil rep to clarify that assertion.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[jbanning 0]

"The Expert CYPRES can be recognized by the red
button on the control unit.
It activates the release unit when it detects a rate
of descent higher than 78 mph (35 m/sec) at an
altitude of approx. 750 feet (approx. 225 meters)
above ground level (AGL). In the event of a
cutaway below this height CYPRES will operate
down to approx. 130 feet AGL, however activation
will not occur unless sufficient speed is obtained.
Below approx. 130 feet (approx. 40 meters) AGL
opening is no longer useful. For this reason,
CYPRES ceases operation below approximately
130 feet AGL."

This is straight directly from the User guide.

It uses a rate of decent at a given altitude range. It is a computer, computers only know math!

[jbanning 0]

The only way a cypres would have not fired is if one was under a mallfunctioning canopy that slowed frefall rate, OR if they were below 130 AGL!!!

[sundevil777 94]

I see, Vigil is claiming that the activation happened below 130 feet, where Cypres will not fire, but Vigil is claiming that it fired below this threshold, and the reserve still had time to (just barely) work.

Is there good reason to suspect that the cutaway happened so low that the min activation speed might not have been reached before 130 feet? I suppose Vigil has the data from the unit to back up their assertion.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[jbanning 0]

There is no way, a reserve could open within 130' to catch enough air to really slow down the rate of descent, it is a simple physics/calculus equation. Besides, if you were swooping wouldnt it fire?....ouch!

[jbanning 0]

Let me correct myself, Vigil has 3 seperate settings.......Which setting was it on? (obviously not tandem)

[everymansaved 0]

I'm no rep for either AAD maker, but I believe that Airtec is now marketing a "Speed" model that de-activates after opening.

God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires.

[sundevil777 94]

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I'm no rep for either AAD maker, but I believe that Airtec is now marketing a "Speed" model that de-activates after opening.

No, the activation speed was raised from 78 to 96 mph, and the 'deactivation' will occur at 330 feet instead of 130. It does not know whether you have opened a canopy or not.

http://www.cypres-usa.com/cypres_news_letter_november_2005.pdf

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[jbanning 0]

look at that link again, it is a new model called the speed cypres2, I was talking about the expert cypres2. The computer doesnt know anything but math. It uses an algorythm to determine velocity. Vigil can only claim they are using a different algorythm, compters only understand numbers and math calculations.

[everymansaved 0]

Ahh, my mistake, sorry. I was under the impression that it just noted the dramatic drop in the altitude loss rate as you being under a canopy (much like a pro-track) and deactivated. My bad!

God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires.

[sundevil777 94]

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look at that link again, it is a new model called the speed cypres2, I was talking about the expert cypres2.

I know that, I wasn't responding to your post, I was reminding others that the speed version doesn't deactivate after the canopy opens.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[jbanning 0]

sory....lol.....I was just saying originally that all vigil must be claiming is that it fires under 130'. Why would you ever want it to? Has anyone ever had a reserve open by an aad under 300'???????

[JerryBaumchen 1,081]

Hi jbanning,

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Has anyone ever had a reserve open by an aad under 300'???????

I don't about the AAD thing but I watched a guy fire a no-pilot-chute chest reserve at approx 300 ft and live. Also, about '67 at a meet in Europe a female 3-way all fired their mains at approx 300 ft and lived.

I don't recommend it but it is possible.

Oh, these were all were round canopies.

Jerry

[Andy9o8 0]

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Also makes me think that perhaps hanging onto your handles is not always the best idea.

Back when we jumped gear with main ripcord handles mounted on the front MLW, Step #1 in our standard EPs, especially in a cutaway situation, was "Throw away the ripcord." It was for 2 reasons: (1) the dangling main ripcord & handle could be a reserve snag hazard, especially with chest-mounted reserves, and (2) it gets your hands completely free so you have nothing to occupy the complete dexterity of both of your hands except your EPs. Sometimes good ideas go out of fashion even though they're still good ideas. Considering the logic of Reason #(2), maybe this is an example of that.

[redknight 0]

not trying to start a vigil v. cypres debate, i know thats going on in other forums, but is that true? also seems an rsl might have been a plan...