* READ THIS * a lesson learned

[skyhawk 2]

on my jump on the weekend i nearly killed myself myself and another skydiver (madcow)i went past him in freefall while he was onder canopy about 10 m away scared the crap out of him all i saw was a blur it wasnt even a low pull cause i pulled just after that my reason for posting this is keep your eyes open i was looking around but why didnt i see him because i was not looking well enough. i was lucky this time 10 meters more and i could of killed us both
CONSTANTLY LOOK AROUND IN FREEFALL

[skyhawk 2]

well any comments

[max 0]

Im not sure of the cicumstances of the dive. Was this two seperate solo dives?
If so, maybe it is a lesson in separation time between exits. Depending on the wind at altitude, the time between exits may have to be increased.
Just something to think about.

[Iflyme 0]

Well, Skyhawk, this proves that you can never count on VERTICAL separation... you need lotsa horizontal, though. I just pleased to hear that a collision didn't occur. A similar thing happened to me last summer - went past a canopy in freefall - and I still pulled at 3000! The other jumper pulled higher than he had planned - so that's when I learned that vertical separation isn't guaranteed.
Frank

[skyhawk 2]

i was in two way and he was doing a solo freefly he left atleast 10sec after me and opened at 3,500 and i opened at 3 (yes i really really float) talking to others it seems to happen quite a lot and that was the reason for my posting it acctually happened again that day

[Dutchboy 0]

All I can say about this is that the exit order completely depends on the wind. If there is no wind then the freeflyers should go first so they won't fall through anyone else. Belly flyers should give them a good delay before exiting (5-10 sec.). When the winds are strong the freeflyers should exit after the belly flyers because the belly flyers are more likely to get blown on top of the freeflyers because they are in the wind longer.

[cloud9 0]

Hey Skyhawk
You guys should also discuss opening altitude if possible, its always nice to know where people plan on opening. On my DZ this weekend we had a couple of folks with new canopies and they wanted to open high and play. Everyone was aware and made proper adjustments. Glad you missed I saw an incident like that in 1976 both jumpers lived but the guy who hit the canopy was severely injured, and never jumped again.
Lets be carefull out there
Larry

[Geoff 0]

We could start a long discussion on exit order (and I might if I get bored) but irrespective of exit order, a good, and often forgotten rule is to fly your canopy across the line of flight until groups before and after you have opened.
Geoff

[Iflyme 0]

Quote

If there is no wind then the freeflyers should go first so they won't fall through anyone else.

Well let's have this discussion... my understanding of exit order is that freeflyers should ALWAYS be out after belly flyers because the BF will experience more freefall drift and get pushed further away... is there really ever a time when there is no wind aloft?
There is a good discussion paper about exit order here: http://indra.net/~bdaniels/ftw/sg_brb_exit_order.html
Frank

[Craig 0]

There is a couple models of freefall drift and separation that plot trajectories and stuff. Last time I checked it out I though it was very interesting. I can't remember which model I actually tried out but I'll probibally check them all out this evening since I remembered about the site.
http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive.html
Craig

[Deleted 0]

I agree with others, vertical separation is wishful thinking! I learned this when I had a super-slow opening / snivel. I went by another diver under canopy who pulled AFTER I did. scary stuff.
Frogger
p.s. sorry I forgot to log-in

[Geoff 0]

OK, here we go....
Actually, I agree with Frank. Belly flyers first. Always. If there really is no wind, it makes no difference, so why make an exception. Reversing the rule in no wind reinforces the dangerous and widely held misconception that vertical separation adds useful safety margin. In fact, any margin it adds is unreliable and shouldn't be trusted. In the case of a snivel, cutaway or minor loss of altitude awareness, vertical separation vanishes instantly.
US DZs I've visited seem quite switched on to this, but in the UK there's less freeflying, and it's still quite common to put freeflyers out first 'because they fall faster'.
I have heard quite a good argument that exit order should be based purely on wing loading (heaviest first) to reduce the chance of canopy collisions, but I don't really buy it, except for hop-n-pop lifts. You have to survive the freefall and deployment first, then worry about the canopy flight.
Anyway, that's M not very HO.
Geoff

[PLFXpert 0]

Wow, this is one of many things that I hear about happening but *never* want to happen to me. I guess I'm a little too trusting b/c the only percautions I've ever taken is before we all get on the plane, we all discuss pull altitude. The freeflyers ALWAYS have gone after the belly-flyers on any load I've been on and then amongst us freeflyers we get out in order of who's pulling higher ext. I have never known, until this thread, why exactly but I've always known that when I'm freeflying, I get out last and that as far as pulling, I usually pull higher than the other freeflyers so so again, I really go last. Pretty much, I get out in the order that the other more experienced jumpers tell me I should. It's nice to know, now, though the reasoning behind it all so that if perchance something sounds odd to me, I will know what questions to ask. Cool thread.
Much love and blue skies,
Carrie http://www.geocities.com/skydivegrl20/

[Zennie 0]

Funny you should mention this. Since I'm a beginner, I like to solo jump a lot, just to try stuff. One of the habits I've gotten myself into is to look around for other fliers. Both in freefall and right as I'm about to pull (and under canopy - duh).
This habit came in handy last jump. A 5-way went out right before me. I gave them a good 5-6 second count and made sure they were on a 45 from me before I left. As I got situated I lost sight of them, busted out some moves and then looked around again and found them about 1000' below me without a lot of horizontal separation. Hard to tell if they drifted my way or vice-versa. Needless to say I looked to make sure no freeflyers were above me and then the rest of my skydive consisted of me tracking like hell away from them.
I probably could have stayed where I was without problems, but why take any chances?
------------
Blue Skies!
Zennie

[Craig 0]

Quote

As I got situated I lost sight of them, busted out some moves and then looked around again and found them about 1000' below me without a lot of horizontal separation. Hard to tell if they drifted my way or vice-versa. Needless to say I looked to make sure no freeflyers were above me and then the rest of my skydive consisted of me tracking like hell away from them.

Ditto here. On several solos I have found myself with less horizontal separation that I felt comfortable with, even when giving them a nice 5 count before I leave. I float quite a bit so this would be the main reason for this to happen (i.e. drifting more than the faster fallers since they will fall through the layers quicker than I) Typically I start scanning below at about 6,000 if I am by myself. Most likely there would be the vertical separation there, but like others have commented it all goes down the drain if you snivel or the low jumper pull higher than expected.
Craig

[skyhawk 2]

see this is what i was after maken everyone think bout it.
he was out last cause he was co-pilot and was flying the plane :-)

[Geoff 0]

The 'count to 5 and exit' rule really isn't safe on a windy day, especially for solos with no 'climb-out' time. If you actually time the gap before a 4-way, it's often more than 20 seconds including climb-out, getting setup, exit count, etc.
Of course the 'right' gap also depends on the speed of the plane. I would regard 5 seconds as an absolute minimum, and only on a no-wind day, with a quick run-in, and a jumper who's skilled enough not to slide around (i.e. not someone's first head-down!).
Geoff

[SkySlut 0]

Is it possible that when you tracked away from the jumper that you were jumping with, that you tracked into the line of flight??? That is another possibility. You should always be tracking perpendicular to the line of flight otherwise you are putting yourself into their airspace. It could have been the second jumper too. The solo could have been doing loops or turns and slid into your airspace. That happened to me once. I was on an 8 way and a solo nearly killed me. He was so close I could hear his chute opening as he passed me and I have a full face helmet. Scared the hell out of me.
Just a thought...
"I'll jump anything!"

[Hellian 0]

I'm starting to get really worried about maybe doing AFF now, /me groans.
Will all these things like only tracking perpendicular to flight be taught??
Also, i am perfectedly happy to accept, i think Goeff's comment, but i did think while reading the thread that freeflyers fall quickers and so should go out first, can anyone please explain why they go last? thanx.
this forum is so awesome for getting info, ty sangiro!
Ed

[SkySlut 0]

Dont worry about the whole tracking perpendicular to the line of flight if you are doing AFF. Your instructor should have you pointed in that direction during the dive. It is his responsibility to make sure you are safe. The only thing that you should be worrying about is your dive. But once you start jumping on your own, please ask someone about this! It will save you a lot of hassle and maybe more if you know about how jumpers fall in the air. It is kind of tough to explain without drawining a diagram, but if you would like I will try to explain it. Let me know if you want me to otherwise ask another jumper at your DZ.
"I'll jump anything!"

[Iflyme 0]

Hellian, freefallers will fall faster than RW workers and other belly flyers, pehaps 30% faster. RW workers would fall at roughly 120mph, and while going head down, the freeflyer could hit 170 - 190mph. So the belly flyers will be in freefall longer than the freeflyers, and thus subject to more freefall drift (being pushed futher by the winds). This will give greater horizontal separation at opening time than if the freeflyers were out before the belly flyers. Did you read the discussion paper on exit order I mentioned earlier (I posted a link to it)?

[Geoff 0]

Why should freeflyers exit last?
There are some simulations and descriptions of this in the links above, but for a short explanation, here goes.
The plane usually runs in into the wind, so jumpers are pushed backwards by the wind after exit. Belly flyers are in freefall longer, so they get pushed further. So if they exit last, they can get pushed back over the top of freeflyers.
If the freeflyers exit last, then the freefall drift just increases the separation.
Hope that makes sense.
As for perpendicular tracking -well IMHO that's good for tracking dives when you cover a lot of ground.
But I'd be interested to hear of any DZs who teach perpendicular tracking at breakoff for RW groups - it's a new one on me, and doesn't sound very practical. That would mean people tracking in the same direction for anything bigger than a 2 way.
Geoff

[SkySlut 0]

The purpose of perpendicular tracking is to not track into the line of flight, which I have seen happen several times...one that almost killed me. When you are turning to track away, they typically teach you to track 180 from the center of the formation, correct? Say you are on a 2-way and you are having a great dive, it comes to break off altitude so you turn 180 and track, you waive off and deploy, next thing you know...you have canopies opening all around you. How did this happen??? The group behind you waited 10 seconds and watched to see that your group was at a 45 degree angle before they left, right??? Well then why are there canopies all around me??? So what happened??? This is what can and will happen to you at some point if you arent aware of the line of flight. You exit in your 2-way and you are having a great time turning points & geeking each other but you arent aware of the line of flight so instead of having your 2-way formation perpendicular to the line of flight you are parallel so when you turn 180...one person turns back against the line of flight and one turns into the line of flight, thus closing the distance of horizontal separation. If that group above you pulls low...there are potential issues and if you pull low you could fall into the group that exited the plane before you. You tracked right into their airspace, which is a very bad thing. Its just an awareness thing. Good separation is both vertical and horizontal.
"I'll jump anything!"

[Zennie 0]

Quote

I'm starting to get really worried about maybe doing AFF now, /me groans.

Don't worry. You're with experienced people who are comfortable in the environment and, like others have said, whose job is to make sure you're safe.
I think skyhawk's comment is most appropriate... learn to look around while in freefall. I've talked to people who didn't start seeing other fallers until they were around 50 jumps. I'm comfortable in freefall, so I've started looking for, and seeing, them earler.
The most important will obviously be those immediately below and above you (if there are any). Just be heads-up. An ounce of prevention...
It starts getting fun when you catch someone going head-down. I've been belly flying and looking around and caught head-downers off to the side. *Man* they fall fast!
------------
Blue Skies!
Zennie

[SkySlut 0]

Here is another good visual representation of exit order...
http://www.omniskore.com/freefall_drift2.html
"I'll jump anything!"