DvK 2 #26 March 15, 2014 Iago*** Many thanks, and apologies all round. No idea what I was starting. It is so awesome meeting all you crazy ass skydivers,thanks for letting me hang with you. Calling riggers today. Mark Now, if you like the CONTAINER and it fits and all that just take the Argus out of the picture. Would you buy the container if the Argus wasn't involved and the price was a few hundred bucks lower? Bear in mind there is no market out there for used Cypres 2. Vigil and Cypres are almost the same price in the new market. I believe the MARS m2 is out in the North American market and could begin to put some downward pressure on prices in the near future. No reason not to buy a good container at a good price just because it's sans AAD.[/quote By this (bold text) you mean that one will have a hard time selling a Cypres 2? Because that is complete rubbish. I see adds from people selling and looking for AADs continuously, with remaining service life spanning from months up to many years... And the prices for these are always fair, since the value of these AADs (especially of a cypres 2) are very, very consistent. http://www.cypres-usa.com/usedcypres.asp Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bucketlistpilot 1 #27 March 15, 2014 westcoastSDQuoteBanned in New Zealand. Skydiving is basically banned in New Zealand is it not? You cannot even fart without having to write a thesis about it. I will never work there again. I thought that NZPO did not have any rules pertaining to Argus other than accepting them as an approved device? Was still jumping Wings and Argus at NZPO up until selling rig last month.Ian Purvis http://www.loadupsoftware.com LoadUp DZ Management App [email protected] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #28 March 16, 2014 Aviacom SA had 4 incidents of the cutter failing to completely cut the loop in a 12 month period. Aviacom SA has been banned by the following: Australian Parachute Federation British Parachute Federation Dutch Parachute Federation New Zealand Parachute Industry Association Parachute Association of South Africa At least 14 manufactures of container/harness systems banned the use of Argus in the gear. This link will give you an idea of the problem http://www.pia.com/TechnicalSpecialPage.htm SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 0 #29 March 16, 2014 It boggles my mind that anyone would even consider placing such a poorly designed, unsupported piece of equipment in their reserve container... To the OP: Think thrice, then think again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #30 March 16, 2014 PiLFyIt boggles my mind that anyone would even consider placing such a poorly designed, unsupported piece of equipment in their reserve container... To the OP: Think thrice, then think again. After so many years of watching jumpers do really stupid things nothing boggles my mind anymore. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #31 March 18, 2014 PiLFyIt boggles my mind that anyone would even consider placing such a poorly designed, unsupported piece of equipment in their reserve container... To the OP: Think thrice, then think again. Why. Dealers keep selling them to people. I'm not surprised in the least. Don't mistake that for agreeing with the practice.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 0 #32 March 18, 2014 W/all the organizations & manufacturers who have banned them. Who is still buying the things ?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #33 March 18, 2014 Well, Don't try to believe that everyone is informed, and know what to be informed about, and know exactly how to get that info. Its not laziness either. (Sometimes it is but that's not a point I wish to discuss here) For instance, Chutingstar will sell them. And I like that group and use them often. I personally will never suggest one but someone would have to ask me before offering my opinion.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #34 March 21, 2014 QuoteFor instance, Chutingstar will sell them. And I like that group and use them often. I personally will never suggest one but someone would have to ask me before offering my opinion. I think there is the fundamental argument that an argus is going to be better than No AAD. I certainly believe so.=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #35 March 21, 2014 Hi Unstable, Quoteargus is going to be better than No AAD However, if the cutter sits above your reserve d-bag or your reserve pilot chute and it fails to completely cut the loop, yet entrapping it so that no deployment can occur, you might want to reconsider that statement. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 0 #36 March 21, 2014 JerryBaumchen Hi Unstable, Quote argus is going to be better than No AAD However, if the cutter sits above your reserve d-bag or your reserve pilot chute and it fails to completely cut the loop, yet entrapping it so that no deployment can occur, you might want to reconsider that statement. JerryBaumchen Or, if the damn Thing goes off outside of parameters, while deploying or head-down Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #37 March 21, 2014 PiLFy ***Hi Unstable, Quote argus is going to be better than No AAD However, if the cutter sits above your reserve d-bag or your reserve pilot chute and it fails to completely cut the loop, yet entrapping it so that no deployment can occur, you might want to reconsider that statement. JerryBaumchen Or, if the damn Thing goes off outside of parameters, while deploying or head-down To my knowledge this has never been documented with any of the modern AAD’s. It has happened many times with mains. You can speculate about possible scenarios all day but decisions should be made on fact not emotion. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 0 #38 March 21, 2014 mjosparky ******Hi Unstable, Quote argus is going to be better than No AAD However, if the cutter sits above your reserve d-bag or your reserve pilot chute and it fails to completely cut the loop, yet entrapping it so that no deployment can occur, you might want to reconsider that statement. JerryBaumchen Or, if the damn Thing goes off outside of parameters, while deploying or head-down To my knowledge this has never been documented with any of the modern AAD’s. It has happened many times with mains. You can speculate about possible scenarios all day but decisions should be made on fact not emotion. Sparky I've seen two vids of AAD fires while jumpers were landing. Neither was a swoop, & one was a super slow canopy. Stands to reason that they could fire at other times, too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #39 March 21, 2014 PiLFy *********Hi Unstable, Quote argus is going to be better than No AAD However, if the cutter sits above your reserve d-bag or your reserve pilot chute and it fails to completely cut the loop, yet entrapping it so that no deployment can occur, you might want to reconsider that statement. JerryBaumchen Or, if the damn Thing goes off outside of parameters, while deploying or head-down To my knowledge this has never been documented with any of the modern AAD’s. It has happened many times with mains. You can speculate about possible scenarios all day but decisions should be made on fact not emotion. Sparky I've seen two vids of AAD fires while jumpers were landing. Neither was a swoop, & one was a super slow canopy. Stands to reason that they could fire at other times, too. Do you have a link to those videos? Did you see a video of one deploying with the jumper head down in freefall? You are making assumptions without facts. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 8 #40 March 21, 2014 QuoteHowever, if the cutter sits above your reserve d-bag or your reserve pilot chute and it fails to completely cut the loop, yet entrapping it so that no deployment can occur, you might want to reconsider that statement. Evaluated Risk. I choose not to rely on my AAD, and without getting into a debate on the argus subject (enough of that on DZ.com) I respectfully decline to retract my original statement.=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #41 March 21, 2014 UnstableQuoteHowever, if the cutter sits above your reserve d-bag or your reserve pilot chute and it fails to completely cut the loop, yet entrapping it so that no deployment can occur, you might want to reconsider that statement. Evaluated Risk. I choose not to rely on my AAD, and without getting into a debate on the argus subject (enough of that on DZ.com) I respectfully decline to retract my original statement. "Vaya con Dios" SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 0 #42 March 21, 2014 I saw both a couple of years ago on Youtube. No time to search, now. I'm at work. Both Jumpers were in the pattern. One had a smallish canopy, & was landing straight in. The reserve PC popped out about 75' off the ground. He wasn't going fast enough for extraction. Second Jumper was new A license under a large canopy. Had just turned onto final when his reserve PC popped out. He was flying right in front of a hangar. The resultant two-out slammed him into the hangar's door, breaking his femur. It was unknown in both cases, I think, when the units actually fired. I'm not making assumptions. I'm putting this out here for more knowledgable people to hash out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #43 March 21, 2014 Hi Unstable, QuoteI respectfully decline to retract my original statement. As long as you make an informed decision ( which, to me, it seems as though you have ) I have no problem with whatever you decide. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Di0 1 #44 March 21, 2014 Chris-Ottawa Anyone who relies on an AAD to save their life probably shouldn't be skydiving. In my opinion, the only reason an AAD should fire and you should require it's use would be if someone was unconscious. Anything else is 100% user error. [...] The defective device is the jumper using it because they failed to operate a parachute correctly. Yes, I realize that there are exceptions and once in a lifetime chances, but in reality the reason for AAD activations in MOST cases...is human error. If they didn't put themselves into that position, they wouldn't have required it, regardless of how well it works. Out of all the AAD activations I've read (including all brands), very, very few of them are actual "saves". 95% of them are users who lost altitude awareness, or were too dumb to save their own lives. Which is very true, in theory. In practice, I'm sure better skydivers than me might have made those mistakes and, if there is a way to grant me a second chance, I don't see why the punishment for an error should be death. I probably never need an AAD, most of us never will, but that one time I do, I want something that is proven to work better than the others and has been around the longest, because if it all comes down to your AAD, then it means that's your last call. I'd rather be an idiot and feel like an idiot under a reserve, than be an idiot under 5 feet of ground. Just my 2c.I'm standing on the edge With a vision in my head My body screams release me My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 55 #45 March 21, 2014 QuoteDo you have a link to those videos? This?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lehGkRCFXY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDUPAkuWP4Y The Vigil in the second video had some problems BEFORE the jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ufk22 32 #46 March 21, 2014 As a former Argus owner, i decided I was better off jumping with NO AAD rather than one that could possibly malfunction and not allow me to deploy my own reserve. You don't need to retract anything, but if you're trying to justify an Argus on any rig it mounts above the freebag, you might want to re-evaluate your statement.This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 0 #47 March 21, 2014 skydiverekQuoteDo you have a link to those videos? This?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lehGkRCFXY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDUPAkuWP4Y The Vigil in the second video had some problems BEFORE the jump. The first link, yes. Though, I don't recall seeing him swoop in. Perhaps I saw a shorter clip. I never saw the second vid, before. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 0 #48 March 21, 2014 "As a former Argus owner, i decided I was better off jumping with NO AAD rather than one that could possibly malfunction and not allow me to deploy my own reserve." Didn't all the container manufacturers who could have their reserves locked in like that, outright ban the Argus? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 0 #49 March 21, 2014 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmOiyrsCRNA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ3iORtWeuQ Couldn't find the guy who hit the hangar door, but here's two more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Quagmirian 40 #50 March 22, 2014 PiLFyhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmOiyrsCRNA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ3iORtWeuQ Couldn't find the guy who hit the hangar door, but here's two more.Yeah, that second one wasn't a misfire. The vigil did exactly what it was supposed to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
