freeflyers or belly flyers out first??

[speedy 0]

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the winds that create what we call "frefall drift" do NOT push fast fallers and slow fallers in different directions.

That is correct, but they push belly fliers for longer.
On a windy day hold in one hand a golf ball (freeflier) and in the other hand a feather (belly flier) and drop both of them. The wind does not push them in different directions, it just pushes the feather further away from you.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[piisfish 137]

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Its just that I've still happened across a DZ here or there that the X-hundred jump wonders still insist on FF out first because of their faulty logic and I'm equally tired of listening to their arguments. I'll give them enough time if exiting after them as to be no factor.

AND WHEN IT'S A X-THOUSAND JUMPS INSTRUCTOR ?

Some people will NEVER understand....

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[phoenixlpr 0]

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AND WHEN IT'S A X-THOUSAND JUMPS INSTRUCTOR ?

Some people will NEVER understand.... Unimpressed

Try to convince the STA or CCI.

[piisfish 137]

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AND WHEN IT'S A X-THOUSAND JUMPS INSTRUCTOR ?

Some people will NEVER understand.... Unimpressed

Try to convince the STA or CCI.

and when it is the same person ??

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[phoenixlpr 0]

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AND WHEN IT'S A X-THOUSAND JUMPS INSTRUCTOR ?

Some people will NEVER understand.... Unimpressed

Try to convince the STA or CCI.

and when it is the same person ??

Someone on the national safety committee?

[piisfish 137]

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Someone on the national safety committee?

even when not too long ago they were advocating for the 45 degrees ? Hopefully we are in the country of individual responsability, and talk together and do as we want in the planes...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

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AND WHEN IT'S A X-THOUSAND JUMPS INSTRUCTOR ?

Then they're usually the type that's in the front of the plane with an AFF or Tandem student wankin' that the other 16 - 18 of us aren't jammed into the back 1/3 of the Otter so they can have the front 2/3'rds to gear check / hook-up their student... play frisbe... etc... ... but that they say, is a different story...

[kallend 1,853]

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>Can anyone explain why its better to do it this way?

Because when you put the freeflyers out first, they drift TOWARDS the first belly group, resulting in less separation and more close calls. When you put the RWers out first, they drift AWAY from the first freefly group, resulting in more separation. (Assuming jump run is into the wind.)

A longer explanation is attached below. It's been discussed many times before here.

this statement is a little misleading, the winds that create what we call "frefall drift" do NOT push fast fallers and slow fallers in different directions. fastfallers do not drift the opposite direction of the wind as the above statement may be interpreted. they just drift less downwind.

I thought it was a precise statement of their relative motion.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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What's great here is that more and more people are understanding.

everybody understands the solution to fix which proplem?

people not being able to count? come on!

multiple passes? BS. about the same total delay between groups needs to be taken with the current exit order(flat-vertical-flat) at perris and elsinore as before(vertical-flat), i'll do the math for you if you want.

exit order/separation and canopy traffic are separate issues but there is a direct correlation between the two, the current exit order is creating more canopy traffic and i think it's easier to teach people how much separation time to give and to fly there canopy off the line of jump run until the next group opens than it is to teach them how to safely fly there canopy in order to avoid collisions. put up a sign in the back of the plane with a chart that tells people how much time to give at different wind speeds.

A good example that 'more' people are getting it, but not everyone yet.

I've done the math, and so has a ton of other people. It's not even physics, it's just a bunch of bookkeeping really.

I'll also take the models that Kallend's done and which was graphically posted on Omniskore for so long. I'll take their results over your refusal to acknowledge wind drift effects.

I can't speak for your Perris and Elsinore comment, maybe they do cross wind jumpruns - but if they do runs into the wind and typical uppers vs lowers follow "normal" patterns (uppers faster than ground), then you are incorrect or they are doing something wrong. If crosswing JRs, then that's something different than what's being discussed here. (I think cross wind jumpruns can be a very good idea, BTW)

The point is for people to understand how drift and throw and having different layers of winds at different altitudes and directions affect exit order and exit separation.

It's much better to figure that out with a bit of rational thought than just having each person argue illogical reasons why "THEY" should be prioritized whereever they want to be.

Edit: I've seen it in practice enough to know that when I'm doing RW, I don't want to be behind FF - but if I'm stuck because of some belligerant asshole that insists, I will wait a LOT longer if wind layers warrant it. WHen I'm freeflying, I ESPECIALLY don't want out before RW where I can't control the delay of the RWers after me. I swoop/surf as often as I can and if has nothing to do with whether I freefall faster or slower. That's nuts. And, since I tend to jump other than solo, then my group will usually have a combo of fast and slow canopies, so that has ZERO bearing on exit order also - as it should even if all of us had smaller canopies.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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I thought it was a precise statement of their relative motion.

It was, the whole concept is about 'relative' motion. Once that's understood, then we make progress on this topic, as well as things like the 45 degree fallacy, etc.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants