RSL question...

[hackish 8]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imo3Nip-slc&mode=related&search=


I was watching that video where an apparent lack of pin check led to the jumper being entangled in the tail with his main chute. Someone made the comment that he disconnected his RSL then cutaway the main and used the reserve.

I'm wondering if removing the RSL was a precaution or very necessary in a situation like this? I thought it was the risers pulling away as you fell free of the main that would pull the RSL and then the spring loaded reserve pilot would pop out and finally pull the reserve out... By this time I would expect the jumper to be far clear of the aircraft.

Comments?

-Michael

[tdog 0]

What is your experience??? Your profile says student. You probably want to discuss with your mentors, at the DZ, if you are new to the sport, how to learn from others. This is my way of saying, "talk to your instructors", but I am a bit more open. I think you should use your mind to ask lots of questions, and understand that most of the answers will be wrong. Until you are off student status, you need to follow your instructors advice and/or disclose any requested alterations to their advice. Once off student status, you will be charged with the task of learning, and it requires thinking hard about questions like this.

Very loaded question:

Pros to disconnecting the RSL:

***at 12,500 feet you have time to make sure you are belly to earth, stable, and ready to deploy your reserve (as soon as you can)

*** The jumper probably can't tell how much entanglement he has, and disconnecting he can verify he fell away from the plane.

*** The reserve won't be deploying in the dirty air behind the aircraft at aircraft speeds

*** If the plane is "going down", the skydiver can make sure he does not collide with the plane under canopy, but it could be the opposite too, being above the plane with an open canopy could be good.

*** If the RSL hangs up, you stay attached to the plane

Cons to disconnecting:

***If he is injured or lost situational awareness due to impact, hard openings, confusion, etc, the reserve handle has to be pulled too...

*** There could be other skydivers who bailed from the aircraft, or even the aircraft, that will provide collision hazards, where having a RSL activated reserve will keep the malfunctioned skydiver higher than the others in freefall.

Conclusion:

The list above is not complete.

Skydivers need to fully understand their gear, how it operates, and the ramifications of using the gear in multiple situations. Skydivers have to then make personal educated decisions based upon knowledge.

In situations like this, where you suddenly accept the role of an experimental test pilot, you have to think on your feet and make quick and accurate decisions based upon knowledge. If the situation changes one variable, the ramifications could be drastic. So there is rarely one right answer.

[hongkongluna 0]

What are your most common mental markers that would tell you, "disconnect RSL," before cutting away your main.

Besides a wrap you need to get clear of or hanging of the tail of the aircraft, what others?

-Rainier

Sparks Brother #1 // "I vaguely heard someone yell "wait!" but by that point i was out the door." Quote from dz.com somewhere

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

What are your most common mental markers that would tell you, "disconnect RSL," before cutting away your main.

Besides a wrap you need to get clear of or hanging of the tail of the aircraft, what others?

Remember, if you are in a wrap you are by definition below canopy height. Although an RSL may kill you in that situation the chance of in air rigging solutions proving fatal is at least as high. You make your decision as to whether or not you will have an RSL and then you go skydiving. Fucking around with your gear when you need to be opening your reserve has killed way more jumpers over the years than RSLs have.
I don't know where this rumour came from that the guy in the vid undid his rsl before he chopped, but I would like to hear it from him or someone who he directly told. I have my doubts.

[hongkongluna 0]

So I assume CRW dont jump an RSL to begin with. The only other time I've heard disconnect RSL advice is just before a water landing.

-Rainier

Sparks Brother #1 // "I vaguely heard someone yell "wait!" but by that point i was out the door." Quote from dz.com somewhere

[Fast 0]

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So I assume CRW dont jump an RSL to begin with. The only other time I've heard disconnect RSL advice is just before a water landing.

There aren't many (any?) good reasons to disconect your RSL before a water landing. When you land in water you need to be getting out of your harness. Cutting away as you land in the water has lead to quite a few problems/injuries/deaths over the years.

A good time to disconnect your RSL is after you are under a properly functioning main canopy and belive that the winds on the ground are higher than expected. That would be about the only time I would think to do it.

I knew at least one person who died doing in-air rigging.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[tdog 0]

Quote

When you land in water you need to be getting out of your harness. Cutting away as you land in the water has lead to quite a few problems/injuries/deaths over the years.

I disagree. I teach, when I teach water training, that there are three types of water:

Single direction current (river)
Bidirection current (ocean waves)
Stagnant (lakes)

When there is a current, you have a higher risk of the canopy becoming a water sail and taking you where you don't want to go. Landing where the water breaks on ocean waves can be real bad as the water can wrap you.

So I teach to remove the RSL as soon as you know you are going to land in water. But never cutaway from the canopy until your feet are wet, you have finished your flare, and done your PLF, for all the obvious reasons. Try to get out of the rig, but if you need to cutaway the main first, do so, as swimming to shore with a container can be safer and quicker than trying to get out of the rig while being dragged (or worse, the canopy stuck on a rock and you being held underwater in a whirlpool).

Think about a skyhook equipped rig, with a main dragging a skydiver down the river while they try to swim to shore. The decide they cannot overcome the pressure of the canopy to swim or get out of it, so they cutaway. Suddenly they have their reserve out of the bag at full line stretch.

I just took a Kayak class. I saw a picture of a plastic kayak "tacoed" around a rock. The instructor explained the pounds per square foot of a good river flow, and I realized that it could easily remove an arm if a canopy line was wrapped around a body part.

Hence, unless landing in a lake, disconnect the RSL (if you can safely) before landing in water. I teach the students to do it with their teeth as it does not require letting go of toggles. Then all options remain open AFTER landing, from cutting away to removing the harness, to swimming to shore.

[BrianM 1]

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I just took a Kayak class. I saw a picture of a plastic kayak "tacoed" around a rock. The instructor explained the pounds per square foot of a good river flow, and I realized that it could easily remove an arm if a canopy line was wrapped around a body part.

I'm a white water kayaker. It is surprising how much force even slow moving water can have. It can be impossible to stand in knee deep water that doesn't look fast at all.

This data comes from Les Bechdel & Slim Ray's book "River Rescue":

Current         Average Total Force of Water

Velocity                  lbf/kgf

mph/kph     (on legs)      (on body)      (on swamped boat)

3/2         16.8/7.6       33.6/15.3      168.0/76.2

6/3.7       67.2/30.5      134.0/60.8     672.0/305.0

9/5.6       151.0/69.0     302.0/137.0    1512.0/686.0

12/7.5      269.0/122.0    538.0/244.0    2688.0/1219.0

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[tdog 0]

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It can be impossible to stand in knee deep water that doesn't look fast at all.

Hijacking an RSL thread... I teach (from what I learned from Kayak and Rafting instructors) in water training for skydiving... Don't attempt to stand up, as if you get a foot caught, you will be pushed over and held under. A few hundred pounds of pressure could snap a leg while your foot is trapped under a rock.

This ties over to the canopy in the water. You want the least attachment points with rocks, trees, etc. The reason - being held in place (canopy or body) will cause harm - thus separating your canopy ASAP from your body, in Martha Stewart terms, "is a good thing."

Ride the rapids, feet first and at the surface, butt down, head up, until you get to a point you can self rescue and swim to the shore. Flipping out of an harness with a main attached is not going to provide the optimal body position to ride a rapid.

As a kayaker, do you agree?

[popsjumper 2]

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...There aren't many (any?) good reasons to disconect your RSL before a water landing. When you land in water you need to be getting out of your harness. Cutting away as you land in the water has lead to quite a few problems/injuries/deaths over the years.

USPA ISP...Category A...in a nutshell, get out of the harness as quickly as possible. Simple as that.

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A good time to disconnect your RSL is after you are under a properly functioning main canopy and belive that the winds on the ground are higher than expected. That would be about the only time I would think to do it.

Again...simple enough.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

88 jumps?

Please, please go back to your instructors and tell them you don't know your EPs.

Read the SIM.

Get retrained.

You're making me worry.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[hongkongluna 0]

Pops, I appreciate your feedback in other threads & your concern now but I dont get what prompted that reply ?

I was referring to what Tdog posted, re a water landing in a body of water with a current, etc. I never posted anything about disconnecting the RSL in order to cut away above the water.

(What I HAD forgotten about though was disconnecting if I've noticed higher winds & there is a danger of being dragged when i land. Which is what MY 1st post was referring to, what i was looking for from you guys)

-Rainier

Sparks Brother #1 // "I vaguely heard someone yell "wait!" but by that point i was out the door." Quote from dz.com somewhere

[hackish 8]

tdog, I'm not asking about modifying my equipment as I don't own any equipment and even if I did I'm not about to start dicking with it having not only student status but also only 4 jumps under my belt. Instead I am trying to better understand the fine details and gotchas of how the equipment works. The pros and cons you did post are more of what I was looking for - a discussion on the operation in this sort of case.

-Michael

[popsjumper 2]

My concern is that your initial post and follow-ups are telling me that you may not understand what the RSL is for, why you want is connected and/or why and when one would want to disconnect it...all of which should have been covered in your FJC.

I by no means want to discourage you from asking about things. It's VERY good that you are asking. Keep asking. Keep learning. Never stop.

Maybe I'm being too hard. I see it every day...people who get through AFF and forget their training and do not continue training and learning. People who think that everything is going to continue to go well simply because it has in the past. Please don't be one of those people.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[hackish 8]

Quote

My concern is that your initial post and follow-ups are telling me that you may not understand what the RSL is for, why you want is connected and/or why and when one would want to disconnect it...all of which should have been covered in your FJC.

From my original post what can you correct on my RSL understanding? I thought that I understood what it was for and how it works.

I think the suggestion of dirty air behind the plane is a good one but suspect even with the RSL you would drop well free of that before the reserve actually opened.

In-air collisions with exiting skydivers strikes me as a valid point but again the amount you would drop and be left behind the moving aircraft I don't know if this would be likely or possible.

Being hit by the aircraft on its way down? I think the pilot would need to do a 180 before that's too possible. Even if the aircraft stalled immediately after you cut I can't imagine a 2 ton aircraft slowing down nearly as fast as 250lbs of jumper.

-Michael

[Fast 0]

Quote

Quote

When you land in water you need to be getting out of your harness. Cutting away as you land in the water has lead to quite a few problems/injuries/deaths over the years.

I disagree. I teach, when I teach water training, that there are three types of water:

Single direction current (river)
Bidirection current (ocean waves)
Stagnant (lakes)

When there is a current, you have a higher risk of the canopy becoming a water sail and taking you where you don't want to go. Landing where the water breaks on ocean waves can be real bad as the water can wrap you.

So I teach to remove the RSL as soon as you know you are going to land in water. But never cutaway from the canopy until your feet are wet, you have finished your flare, and done your PLF, for all the obvious reasons. Try to get out of the rig, but if you need to cutaway the main first, do so, as swimming to shore with a container can be safer and quicker than trying to get out of the rig while being dragged (or worse, the canopy stuck on a rock and you being held underwater in a whirlpool).

Think about a skyhook equipped rig, with a main dragging a skydiver down the river while they try to swim to shore. The decide they cannot overcome the pressure of the canopy to swim or get out of it, so they cutaway. Suddenly they have their reserve out of the bag at full line stretch.

I just took a Kayak class. I saw a picture of a plastic kayak "tacoed" around a rock. The instructor explained the pounds per square foot of a good river flow, and I realized that it could easily remove an arm if a canopy line was wrapped around a body part.

Hence, unless landing in a lake, disconnect the RSL (if you can safely) before landing in water. I teach the students to do it with their teeth as it does not require letting go of toggles. Then all options remain open AFTER landing, from cutting away to removing the harness, to swimming to shore.

I don't know a whole lot about kyaking or the like, but to me it would seem that if you are going to be landing in a river that has that kind of current / rapids / etc, that you are well past the point where you have time to think about and execute disconnecting your RSL (especially given that most people have never done it in the air, and why is that exactly?). I would think that using that time to losen up straps (deploy water gear if your a student) get your hands back in your toggles and make minor corrections to go into the water at an ideal place would be a better use of your time.

I can see for the ocean that you might know for a significantly longer period of time that you are screwed and going to be landing in water. None the less, I guess I come back to thinking that, once you are in the water cutting away the main isn't going to do a whole lot of good because it is still going to be right there with you. I imagine it having a similar likelyhood of wraping you up even after you cut it away. You are going to have a really hard time swimming with the reserve on your back too. So, agian, it seems like your time would best be spent trying to get out of all the gear. I guess I can't see how it would hurt to cut the RSL away though, given plenty of time to deal with all the other things that I consider more important.

I haven't personally been in either situation, but I am sure there are people who have.

Thanks for the interesting ideas though. I like this discussion.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[tdog 0]

Quote

I don't know a whole lot about kyaking or the like, but to me it would seem that if you are going to be landing in a river that has that kind of current / rapids / etc, that you are well past the point where you have time to think about and execute disconnecting your RSL (especially given that most people have never done it in the air, and why is that exactly?). I would think that using that time to losen up straps (deploy water gear if your a student) get your hands back in your toggles and make minor corrections to go into the water at an ideal place would be a better use of your time.

#1 - you can disconnect your RSL with your teeth in about one second.

#2 - rivers are very narrow typically, with trees around them.

Landing in a river is completely unacceptable for even a novice skydiver if there is another available option, such as a big field. So it is my THEORY that the average river landing is chosen and/or known as a possibility, higher up:

"Gee whiz, I am going to jump from this plane and land on the beach" (at which time the skydiver should have a plan before leaving the plane that would take into account an accidental landing in the river)...

Or... "gee whiz, I just opened at 3K and am over a huge forest. The only non-tree landing is that river. I will shoot for the shore, but if I overshoot I am going to go into the water. I need to be ready now."

Both of these scenarios apply for ocean landings too - you know before you leave the plane that an ocean landing is possible, so getting ready for it mentally before you leave the plane is appropriate.

So, yes, a skydiver who is not trained (or is too closed minded) not to start their water landing procedures at 2,000 feet (actually before they even take off in the aircraft), probably will find 300 feet a bit low to start their water landing procedures... These are the people that are most likely to get hurt in every scenario because they waited too long to get ready.

But a skydiver who knows water landing is possible when they leave the plane, who analyzes the likelihood of water landing at 2,000 feet, and starts preparing for it at 1000 feet or more if landing in it is imminent, has plenty of time to take care of the housekeeping.

I have swam with a rig on my back as part of watertraining myself. It was fully water logged. If I am in a rapid, if anything, I am going to keep that container on my back to protect my spine from the sharp rocks, instead of swimming out of it and possibly making my head the lowest part of my body most susceptible to impact.

I think the stats show that a reserve acts like a floatation device for 2 minutes due to the air in the rig, and after 2 minutes it becomes an anchor. Hence, I am likely to keep the rig, without the main, on me, if I am a few feet from the shore after going thru a rapid, especially since not self rescuing and trying to remove gear could cause me to go thru another rapid.

[yeyo 1]

OK...so the guy in the video is a friend.
We have 'beer talked' about this incident many times.
From what I can remember, he doesnt uses an RSL. (he jumps with camera). He decided to open the reserve at normal opening altitude because that was at the freefall convention and there was a lot of airplanes in the air. He thouht it would be a bad idea to be flying a canopy at 10000' without other pilots knowing about it....

By the way, 2 days ago he suffered an accident at Summerfest (not skydive related)...hes been in coma since then. So he cant chime in right now about the premi thing. Pray for his recovery....

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[riggerrob 558]

Someone made the comment that he disconnected his RSL then cutaway the main and used the reserve.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In air rigging has killed far more people than opening reserves too high.
Messing with an RSL - during a malfunction - reduces your chances of survival/reduces your time to impact.
In 99 percent of scenarios, opening a reserve too high improves your chances of survival.

[popsjumper 2]

(continued)

...and now that you have 88 jumps, learning new ways of handling new situations is a very good idea. There are better ways of handling some things than what is taught in FJC.

Although I don't agree with his method of teaching water landing procedures to 0-jump students, Tdog does raise some very good scenarios and responses for "more experienced" jumpers.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Ether 0]

Quote

What are your most common mental markers that would tell you, "disconnect RSL," before cutting away your main.

Besides a wrap you need to get clear of or hanging of the tail of the aircraft, what others?

When performing a Beer Accuracy landing..

Looking for newbie rig, all components...