Politics, race, and other BS: Bush vs. U of M

[sunman 0]

I usually don't like to start political debates, but something is pissing me off, so what the hell. Let me start by saying that I hold no party affiliation and zero political loyalties. I am not a democrat and I am not republican.

For those of you who haven't seen this in the news yet, I'll offer a brief summary. The University of Michigan has an affirmative action policy that helps minorities get into the school. The idea is to encourage diversity in the student body. To get into the U of M, one needs to take an admissions test. Any applicant who is African-American, Hispanic, or Native American automatically gets 20 points out of a 150 point system for being a minority. The Bush administration is opposing this, saying that the system is unconstitutional and fundamentally flawed. "All races must be treated equally under the law", Bush says, and feels that this system does not treat races equally. Needless to say, the democrats, civil rights groups and civil rights leaders stand opposed to the stance taken by the Bush administration.

Now I certainly do not agree with everything Bush says and does. But I have to admit that I think he's right on with this one. I do not have a problem with encouraging racial diversity. Hell, it would be nice to see a little more diversity at our drop zones. What I have a problem with is the way the University of Michigan goes about promoting diversity, and it's not because I feel "threatened" as a caucasian. I do not feel at all threatened by this policy. That is not my complaint. My complaint is that this affirmative action policy taken by the U of M is actually quite racist. Why do they give minorities an automatic 20 points on a test for admission? Are minorities inferior and they need the help? This policy seems to say that to make things fair, that African Americans, Hispanics, and Native Americans need a "handicap" to mentally compete with white people! Could this notion possibly be any more racist? This is why I am so pissed off! The Bush administration is actually doing the right thing in opposing this racist policy, and is accused of being racist! The democrats and civil rights leaders, who are supposed to fight racism, actually support this policy that asserts that minorities are somehow inferior!

So what do you think? Do you agree with me that the affirmative action policy at the U of M is trying so hard to promote diversity that it is actually racist? Or am I missing something here?

[kmcguffee 0]

The U of M's policy violates the constition IMHO. You cannot discriminate based on race period. It doesn't matter what race.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[Ducky 0]

Yes I agree kudos to ole Bubba Bush for finally speaking up on this issue. The unfortunate part here is this problem has been in need of attention for WAY too long.
Do some research and see just how far back "affirmitive action" dates. Policies inspired by this hair brained idea have unfairly denied millions of american "majorities" the right to the education they seek or the job they need.
The University of Georgia has been under heavy fire lately for similar practices, but thier more sexist than racist practices have gotten the publicity.
As for affiritive action and the policies it has inspired in the workplace.. oh brother. I once had a candid conversation w/ human resources guru. Privatate corporations have tried to stay clear off screwed up policies in recnt times, but the Gov't and private contractors for the gov't are outta control. It seems that the number one way to land a big gov't contract these days is to have a "diverse" employment base. If ya need proof just take a lok around any gov't office these days. What do you see??? Hmm lots of women, and minorities... Maybe it's because "they" (nice stereotype) like that kind of work. Bullshit!

kwak

Sometimes your the bug, sometimes your the windshield. Sometimes your the hammer sometimes your the nail. Question is Hun, Do you wanna get hammered or do you wanna get nailed?????

[Jimbo 0]

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Now I certainly do not agree with everything Bush says and does. But I have to admit that I think he's right on with this one.

Like you I do not agree with everything that GWB does or says, however, this is the first thing he's done that I agree with completly. It's the first time he's done something that I don't need explained to me. It's the first thing he's done that I feel is just right.

Good job George.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Jib 0]

But, it's politically correct to give on kid an advantage over another when they're the same age, from the same neighborhood, got the same grades, did the same things and worked as hard. Makes perfect sense. Afterall, the first thing a minority kid's going to do when he graduates from college is go back to the stereo-typical neighborhood from whence all minorities must have come. If they really want diversity, they could take account of kids who overcame economic, linguistic or other disadvantages and consider geographic or cultural differences rather than racial ones.

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[billvon 2,471]

>Do you agree with me that the affirmative action policy at the U of M is
>trying so hard to promote diversity that it is actually racist?

Yep. If they want to have special support programs for minority students, great. If they want to advertise heavily to get minorities into the college, also good. But in terms of admissions, everyone should get the same shot. To do otherwise is to favor one race over another.

[wmw999 2,169]

I went and looked at the criteria. Other things they give advantage to include:

children of alumni
applicants from under-represented counties in Michigan
men applying to the nursing school
and the title of the one for race is "under-represented ethnic groups"

Are the other groups getting preference OK, but race isn't?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Jimbo 0]

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Are the other groups getting preference OK, but race isn't?

No, none of it is OK.

If a school has room for 1000 incoming freshmen then they should be taking the top 1000 applicants. In other words, he who puts forth the greatest amount of work receives the greatest reward.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Jib 0]

Quote

I went and looked at the criteria. Other things they give advantage to include:

children of alumni
applicants from under-represented counties in Michigan
men applying to the nursing school
and the title of the one for race is "under-represented ethnic groups"

Are the other groups getting preference OK, but race isn't?

Wendy W.

Alumni = $$
It's a state school; so, the diversity of the state should be represented.
Male nurses -- I think you have a point about that one. I think diversity should be looked at school-wide. But, NCAA athletic scholarships have to be equal between the sexes. Is it fair that male swimmer's don't get athletic scholarships to balance out the football team?

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[Snowflake 0]

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Are minorities inferior and they need the help?

No but they have been denied equal access to education. The fact that schools are funded by property taxes pretty much keeps that situation the same.

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This policy seems to say that to make things fair, that African Americans, Hispanics, and Native Americans need a "handicap" to mentally compete with white people!

Your missing the point it's about resources and access. Caucasians own most of the resources and power in this country. Therefore they have access to those resources and everthing they provide including quality education. Minorities on the other hand have very limited resources and so have very limited access to quality education.

Throw in the fact that you have culturally biased tests and that caucasians purposly did all they could to destry the male psyche of some of the minorities in this country for centuries and maybe you do need a "handicap"

no insult intended but I find it amusing when a white male complains about something like this. This country was stolen from one race built on the labor of another. Then both those races are treated like subhumans for 100's of years and when something is done so that the playing field is leveled who are the first people that get pissed? The ones who benifitted the most from this.

As far as unconstitutional goes please don't hand me that BS those are the rules that are made by the people in power for the people in power. I personally have had my constitutional rights ignored by the authorities so many times I don't even bother to count anymore.

PS I do like that reverse racisim thing very interesting...LOL

[dterrick 0]

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To get into the U of M, one needs to take an admissions test.

I do recall from my business and psych studies at the University of Manitoba (different U of M) that one thing that has NEVER been eliminated - and is indeed hard to objectively measure - is cultural bias on any type of test. I don't know a lot, if anything, about your particular admission tests but it sounds as if they have "Attempted" to eliminate this factor with a blanket curve.

I would disagree with your use of the term "handicap" with respect to intelligence and substitute the term "aptitude" - isn't that what our previous generations used to call them? Aptitude tests?

If you want into law school, for example, you need to prove you have an above average aptitude for THINKING like a lawyer. ditto for Management, Medicine, etc. Yes, this is selection bias. I'm sure in the long run this system has "produced the desired product" in those areas (for better or worse) as "the administration" scores themselves on how well their grads do in the real world after the fact.

Should this aptitude testing apply to general arts education? I think it does and they call it "high school" and those who can deal well with that pressure cooker while growing up are likely to succeed at university if they care to do so.

Does reverse discrimination improve or exasorbate the problem? I guess it depends on your position within the "system". No matter what, it certainly is a Policy tool that is influenced by those who fund the educational system.

Now we'd need to address the political system and party policies as well.

On a lighter note ...Has anyone else seen the National Lampoon's "Senior Class Trip" that's been on the movie network lately? Talk about your stereotypes. LMAO.

Dave

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[Jib 0]

Quote

Quote

Are minorities inferior and they need the help?

No but they have been denied equal access to education. The fact that schools are funded by property taxes pretty much keeps that situation the same.

Quote

This policy seems to say that to make things fair, that African Americans, Hispanics, and Native Americans need a "handicap" to mentally compete with white people!

Your missing the point it's about resources and access. Caucasians own most of the resources and power in this country. Therefore they have access to those resources and everthing they provide including quality education. Minorities on the other hand have very limited resources and so have very limited access to quality education.

Throw in the fact that you have culturally biased tests and that caucasians purposly did all they could to destry the male psyche of some of the minorities in this country for centuries and maybe you do need a "handicap"

no insult intended but I find it amusing when a white male complains about something like this. This country was stolen from one race built on the labor of another. Then both those races are treated like subhumans for 100's of years and when something is done so that the playing field is leveled who are the first people that get pissed? The ones who benifitted the most from this.

As far as unconstitutional goes please don't hand me that BS those are the rules that are made by the people in power for the people in power. I personally have had my constitutional rights ignored by the authorities so many times I don't even bother to count anymore.

PS I do like that reverse racisim thing very interesting...LOL

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A children should not be made to pay for being born politically incorrect. I believe completely in the value of education, but the problem should be corrected by educating economically disadvantaged people of every race, not favoring a stereotype of one at the expense of another.

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[gemini 0]

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The fact that schools are funded by property taxes pretty much keeps that situation the same.

Not in Texas. The school districts are required to operate under the Robinhood Plan. This law says that rich districts who collect more money, must share funds with the poorer districts. The legislative goal was to even out the tax revenues between districts based on their student populations and local tax rates.

Unfortunately it has not worked exactly as planned, but many more dollars are going to the poorer districts.

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Your missing the point it's about resources and access. Caucasians own most of the resources and power in this country. Therefore they have access to those resources and everthing they provide including quality education. Minorities on the other hand have very limited resources and so have very limited access to quality education.

No I think you are missing the point! My family and I do not own most of the resources and power either locally or nationally. I had to work my way through school after military service with the help of the GI bill. All minority vets had the same access to this assistance, but many chose not to go to college after serving. This was a voluntary decision probably based on their personal economic situation at the time, but nevertheless a voluntary decision. They wanted to earn bucks then instead of investing in their future. I was willing to survive on hot dogs and rice to pay tuition.

Now you're saying that their children should have an advantage over mine because they did not have equal access? Education was more important to me than it was to them, but they had equal opportunity and access.

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Then both those races are treated like subhumans for 100's of years and when something is done so that the playing field is leveled who are the first people that get pissed? The ones who benifitted the most from this.

No one in my family has ever treated anyone as subhuman. We never owned slaves or participated in the killing of American Indians. My father's family fled Syria in the late 1800's to fled from religious persecution; My mother's family fled Scotland after being kicked out of the church there. They came to America with nothing and in one lifetime were comfortably middle class citizens. And yes they suffered from racism too! Even in South Texas as a 4th generation American, my brother was kicked off a high school girlfriends front porch by her dad who said "My daughter does not associate with Arabs!" We had blue eyes and blond hair and were Christian, but that didn't make any difference to those with small minds.

I believe in equal access and equal rights for all. If two kids, one black and one white, make the same SAT score and enrollment at a school is limited then the receipt date and time of the application should be the only discriminating factor.

If the SAT is biased as you have stated, we need to fix that problem instead of penalizing the kids who had nothing to do with creating the exam.

You have accused and lumped all Caucasians into one pot and attached a label. That my friend is racism!

Blue skies,

Jim

[nathaniel 0]

It seems impossible to talk about racial discrimination without making all kinds of prejudicial assumptions... I am amused by the way people (eg Bush) get sucked into racist terms, tho in this case my perception is with yours, Bushie seems to have gotten this one right on principle.

IMNSHO admission should be merit-based and correlated only with academic factors...introducing artificial bias into a system to correct for errors is by essence prejudicial and hypocritical. Race, date of birth, sex, religion, etc are factors determined entirely or almost entirely at birth...it is just not fair to take from people in one category to give to people in another.

Isn't it obvious that adding racial bias to a system won't decrease the amount of racial bias in the system? The way to address racial bias is to remove it at the source, ie, not to jimmy the numbers until it looks ok.

Nathaniel

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[gemini 0]

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The way to address racial bias is to remove it at the source, ie, not to jimmy the numbers until it looks ok.

Exactly. Thanks for stating it so clearlt!

Blue skies,

Jim

[billvon 2,471]

>No but they have been denied equal access to education. The fact that schools
> are funded by property taxes pretty much keeps that situation the same.

An odd thing to say. Schools funded by the students (i.e. student pays 100%) would be more fair? That would seem to favor the rich.

>Your missing the point it's about resources and access. Caucasians own most
>of the resources and power in this country. Therefore they have access to
>those resources and everthing they provide including quality education.

That's sorta the point of this discussion. The opposite is currently true, by policy, at schools like this. There is a written policy that requires them to treat certain minorities differently than others. That seems wrong to me no matter what sort of discrimination it is.

[kallend 1,679]

It would be easier to agree with Bush if it weren't for the fact that he is one of the biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action to be found anywhere.

"W" got into Yale with a very mediocre record from a prep school (Phillips Academy), through affirmative action by family connections (his grandfather was a Yale trustee). I seriously doubt any of us would have been admitted to Yale with a similar academic record.

He had an undistinguished record at Yale, but then got admitted to Harvard Business School by virtue of being the son of a donor and grandson of a US Senator. I seriously doubt any of us would have been admitted to Harvard with such an academic record. Going to an Ivy League school is apparently a Bush birthright.

So getting a leg up because of your family pedigree is just fine by Bush standards, but not because of your racial pedigree. This just a couple of weeks after he grandstanded against Trent Lott on the racial issue. What Hypocrisy!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,679]

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>No but they have been denied equal access to education. The fact that schools
> are funded by property taxes pretty much keeps that situation the same.

An odd thing to say. Schools funded by the students (i.e. student pays 100%) would be more fair? That would seem to favor the rich.

.

Maybe CA is different, but in Illinois the schools are primarily funded by local property taxes, so wealthy (i.e. white) communities spend much per per capita on public schooling than do poor (i.e. black and hispanic) communities. Over the course of K - 12, a white kid from an affluent family gets about $50,000 more spent on their public education than does a poor black kid.

The solution is clear, the poor black families should buy $1M houses in the affluent neighborhoods.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wmw999 2,169]

Even in states with "robin hood" plans (i.e. some revenue sharing among rich and poor districts) there are differences. If you grow up in a good neighborhood, the locals can supplement your education with private efforts. Poorer neighborhoods are often hard-pressed to have the basics, never mind the supplemented stuff.

This doesn't mean you should be penalized extra for growing up rich. But maybe just maybe in a school funded by public dollars, it shouldn't suck quite so much to have been born with parents who couldn't afford to move to a nice neighborhood.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wmw999 2,169]

An input point on excellence (only)-only based education. In Brazil, the public universities are exellence-only based. The private ones have more leeway. However, the public ones are either free or heavily supplemented; therefore families without much money would be able to go there.

What's happened, though, is that the vast majority of students are upper class (there is not a huge middle class) students who went to excellent private high schools. There is no room for the poor students who didn't get as good a preparation. And since public universities are free, there aren't as many scholarships for the private ones.

So, the rich have good access, and the poor have to work a whole lot harder. I'm not sure it's an improvement over what we have.

Yes, there are other differences between the two systems, but this one is pretty notable.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 1,679]

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Are the other groups getting preference OK, but race isn't?

No, none of it is OK.

If a school has room for 1000 incoming freshmen then they should be taking the top 1000 applicants. In other words, he who puts forth the greatest amount of work receives the greatest reward.

-
Jim

What's work got to do with it?

I was a very lazy student from a poor white family in London, but aced enough exams to get a full scholarship to Cambridge (UK Ivy League) all the way through PhD.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[PhillyKev 0]

There's cultural bias in admissions testing, and general education. As an example, you know the line, "they all look alike". Any race can apply that to any other race legitimately. It's been proven that humans have trouble distinguishing differences in facial characteristics between those of a different race than their own. The same thing goes for understanding what's being taught to you throughout your scholastic life. Minorities have a harder time. Not because they are inferior, but because the educational resources are based on white society.

I am very much opposed to racial quotas (which they have with gov't jobs...why is that not unconstitutional). There shouldn't be a rule that a certain number of a certain race should get preferential treatment. But evening the playing field by applying a curve is the right thing to do. I bet if they did some studies (and they probably already did) they'd find that a black with the same intelligence and same dedication to school as a white would score about 20 points lower on their admission test.

[jfields 0]

Kevin,

I agree that things need to be done to even the playing field with education of minorities. But I actually support the actions against the U of M. I think it is the best long-term solution and the ethically right thing to do.

It is like a doctor who treats only symptoms, without looking at diseases or injuries. We can give painkillers all day long, but if someone femured and has their bone sticking out of their leg, the painkillers will never fix the problem. It might hurt a lot for a little while, but the bone needs to be set, so it can heal.

Education is the same way. Affirmative action treats the inequalities, but not the causes. Compensating, or even overcompensating, just creates different inequalities. Aren't we striving for an equal playing field? Resources need to be thrown at bringing up the educational opportunities in poor areas, rather than propping up the products of those poor educational systems when they hit college age.

[CrazyThomas 0]

Racist or not, the fact remains:
"You can't please everyone all the time"
so, basically someone will always be pissed off. Just don't piss off "the people" with power. Because "they" have the power.
Everyone knows it, so let's hear it.
now everyone together.....
THIS AINT NO DAMN DEMOCRACY!
even though America tries to claim it.
whatever,
Thomas

[billvon 2,471]

>I bet if they did some studies (and they probably already did) they'd
> find that a black with the same intelligence and same dedication to
> school as a white would score about 20 points lower on their
> admission test.

Then change the test; it is the test, not the admissions policy, that is biased. It's better to remove bias than to try to add bias back in later hoping it all evens out in the end.