When they come for you to take your guns will you:

[steve1 5]

Weaver's son and wife were murdered over a pair of sawed-off shotguns.
.....................................................

I agree. These were senseless acts and a terrible example of how law enforcement ought to work. It kind of reminds me of Nazi Storm Troopers invading a person's home. But then again there were probably a lot of good police personal up on Ruby Ridge who were just following orders. Whoever was in charge up there really dropped the ball on this one. I hope it ended their career in law enforcement. I also fear the power that is being given to such agencies as the BATF. This is a good example of what can happen.....Steve1

[mnischalke 0]

a little of what happened:

Quote

Senate criticizes federal law enforcement

Hearings
From September 6 to September 14, 1995, the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee held hearings relating to the Ruby Ridge siege.

Questioned about his extreme racial views, Weaver admitted he was a white separatist: "I'm not a hateful racist as most people understand it. I believe that if there is separation of races, scripturally speaking, that's what I believe is right."

As reported in the News and Observer:

"On Aug. 21, 1992, federal marshals shot my son Samuel in the back and killed him. He was running home to me. His last words were, 'I'm coming dad,'" Weaver said.

On the killing of his wife, Weaver said, "She was not wanted for any crime. There were no warrants for her arrest. At the time she was gunned down, she was helpless. She was standing in the doorway of her home."

His voice broke as he described his wife slumping to the floor, their 10-month-old daughter still in her arms. Weeping in the audience was his oldest daughter, Sara, who also was to testify.

...

"If I had it to do over again, knowing what I know now, I would make different choices," Weaver said. "I would come down from the mountain for the court appearance."

Lon Horiuchi, the FBI sniper who killed Weaver's wife, refused to answer the Senate panel's questions, invoking his Fifth Amendment rights. Horiuchi's lawyer recommended that Horiuchi not testify because an Idaho prosecutor is considering criminal charges against Horiuchi.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Report
On December 21, the U.S. Senate Judiciary subcommittee on terrorism report on the Ruby Ridge standoff between Randy Weaver's family and the FBI. The panel concluded that FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi's shot that killed Vicki Weaver was illegal and violated her civil rights.

The panel criticized FBI Director Louis J. Freeh's "questionable judgement" in promoting Larry Potts after reprimanding him for his role in the incident. Potts and four other top FBI officials have been suspended while a federal criminal probe investigates the destruction of documents related to the incident.

The focal point of the Senate's criticism is the FBI's "Hostage Rescue Team," which originally only operated in foreign countries, is overtly militaristic and aggressive, and is used in situations where there are no hostages to be rescued.

The panel also criticized the U.S. Marshals service and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) for their roles, saying, "While Randy Weaver made mistakes, so did every federal law enforcement agency involved in the Ruby Ridge incident."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sources: AP news story reprinted in the August 15, 1995 San Francisco Examiner; AP story "Weaver pleads for justice, senators explore his views," in the September 6, 1995 News and Observer; New York Times News Service story "FBI sniper asserts Fifth Amendment privilege in Senate hearing," in the September 12, 1995 News and Observer; December 21, 1995 Associated Press article, "Senate report says sniper shot at Ruby Ridge was unlawful," reprinted in the NandO Times.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[PhillyKev 0]

By the way...the Assault Weapons Ban is scheduled to sunset next October, 2004. Bush has stated that he will sign the renewal (although I'm hoping he's just saying that because he assumes the republican legislature won't send it to him).

It's set to lapse a month before elections during a presidential voting year. The anti-gunners are trying to push to have it renewed now instead of waiting until then. Their hope is that fence sitters won't be as fearful of pissed off gun owners voting against them if they do it now instead of a month before the election.

Bottom line is, if you plan to write your representatives (I hope you do) you should do it now, don't wait.

You can go here for more info.

Go here to easily email your reps.

[freeflir29 0]

BTW...I heard a rumor that the FBI HRT was being done away with. I'm not in the FBI so I don't have a clue if it's true or not. Anyone else here this?

[mnischalke 0]

They've been under scrutiny for a decade, due to their mission vs. actual employment. They won't go away. If anything, they'll change the name to something like SRT or such.

Modern-day ninjas, you got to love every aspect of their being, ya know? They do.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[freeflir29 0]

Quote

mission vs. actual employment.

Actually I heard it was because the ENTIRE FBI is in an 1811 (Criminal Investigator) slot and not an 1801 (Ummm forgot this one but it's something like LE/Security) So basically, the HRT is doing duties NOT commensurate with their job description. But...it was just a rumor....I hear about a million per week.

[mnischalke 0]

Very interesting and very true, but since when does anything like that matter when it comes to the all-powerful, self-governing agencies? Now's the time to do that though, with the homeland security shakeup happening and all.

Nice sig line, btw.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[freeflir29 0]

Quote

Nice sig line, btw

It was the product of a drunk dial last weekend. She asked me if I liked her in a cumdumpster sort of way or just as a friend.... What a COOL chick!!!

[mnischalke 0]

What an amazing way to get my mind off of government atrocities...

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[kmcguffee 0]

Quote

I have handled my fair amount of solid CS in USMC gas chambers and it is activated by a single source--fire.

Exactly, once it is activated it is no longer flammable. It could have contributed to the fire in the activation phase (the grenades initially burn to initiate the fire) but once initiated it is no longer flammable. If it were, the CS tents that the military used would have burst into flames. The CS in the air is not flammable.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[mnischalke 0]

the CS was pumped in in the powder form. It was most certainly flammable as those people at Mount Carmel found out first hand.

Any CS powder is flammable. if it is still airborne, it will flash off when ignited. Military use of CS in tents and moble CS trailers consists of solid blocks of compressed CS, much like that which is in the CS grenades.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[mnischalke 0]

Funny little trick if yer still in the miltary: When you are in the field, peel the little piece of duct tape on the bottom of a smoke canister, add a few chunks of solid CS in the hollow and place the tape back over the hole. Toss yer smoke into your opposing force and hang out for a while. It's a thousand laughs a minute. heheeeeee

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[kmcguffee 0]

Quote

may make an application for an order requiring the production of any tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents, and other items)

Quote

Any FBI agent of a certain rank can request a search warrant, and needs produce no proof, or even reason beyond claiming that it's needed to protect against international terrorism.

Bill, I'm not trying to be a smartass here but you don't understand the difference between a search warrant and a subpoena. Police have never been required to produce evidence to get a subpoena for records, papers, documents, phone tolls, etc. You only require an open case (which requires evidence), an investigative need, and the approval of a Grand Jury. The Patriot Act moves that requirement (in terrorism cases) to a FISA court where there is no Grand Jury. The FISA judge gives the approval.

In one of your other posts you mixed things that require a subpeona with things that require a search warrant. A search warrant is required when searching an area where a person has a 'reasonable expectation of privacy' as defined by the Supreme Court. This includes your house, car, safety deposit box, e-mails, etc. The Patriot Act now allows terrorism investigations to get search warrants through the FISA court with probable cause. In a regular court this is usually done in the judges chambers but the affidavit showing probable cause is discoverable during trial. In a FISA court the original affidavit is not discoverable in trial unless the judge orders it.

There are changes but they are not as drastic as some journalists are trying to make it. They are intentionally muddying the waters to make headlines.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[kmcguffee 0]

Quote

Military use of CS in tents and moble CS trailers consists of solid blocks of compressed CS, much like that which is in the CS grenades.

Then why doesn't it burn up when ignited in the little coffee can in the center of the tent?

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[mnischalke 0]

It is burning and it does burn up. The bonding material in the chunk of solid CS slows the burning process so there is no flash fire. Powder doesn't have the bonding material, hence the highly flammable nature of CS creates a fuel that spreads flame rapidly. I can show you sometime if you want. Neither CS nor CN are controlled substances. That or if you can get your hands on a T16 flameless expulsion grenade, a t21 37/38mm muzzleblast dispersion cartridge or any of the other "indoor" non-pyro barricade rounds etc, pop one open and pour out the powder. Then toss a match. Fun stuff. Unless you're really used to CS, I suggest wearing a mask during this experiment.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[kmcguffee 0]

Quote

It is burning and it does burn up.

The solid burns in the can. When it burns up it gives off the gas which irritates on contact.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[wmw999 2,122]

There are a lot of folks who are worried about small erosions in their rights to privacy and the like, especially when those erosions make it easier for the same folks who worked for J.Edgar Hoover to do stuff even a little more easily.

Thanks for shedding some light; I'm a little less worried, but it still seems like there's more potential for abuse, because there's no requirement for everythign to be available for disclosure.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[skydiverbob 0]

Shoot an infant in a mother's arms? .



If this is referring to Ruby Ridge you kinda have it backwards, the mother was shot while holding the baby.




RW

Who Dares Wins

[mnischalke 0]

The powder is not meant to burn. It too irritates on contact. It is made of micro-fine particles that float on the air for a long enough period to be contacted and inhaled by a subject(s). Non-pyro grenades use a CO2 cartridge to expel the powder through four ports in base of the grenade. It fills the air almost as well as the smoke from the ignited CS. Ignited CS will stay in the air for a much longer period though and will penetrate clothing much more easily.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

In a regular court this is usually done in the judges chambers but the affidavit showing probable cause is discoverable during trial. In a FISA court the original affidavit is not discoverable in trial unless the judge orders it.

Effectively eliminating the ability to defend your 4th amendment rights. If you can't examine the evidence used to provide "probable cause", how do you challenge that determination?

[steve1 5]

Quote

The powder is not meant to burn. It too irritates on contact. It is made of micro-fine particles that float on the air for a long enough period to be contacted and inhaled by a subject(s). Non-pyro grenades use a CO2 cartridge to expel the powder through four ports in base of the grenade. It fills the air almost as well as the smoke from the ignited CS. Ignited CS will stay in the air for a much longer period though and will penetrate clothing much more easily.

All this talk about CS is making my eyes water and nose run. Terrible stuff!. I'll never forget that day in infantry training when they ran the first guy through the CS building and he came out with gobs of snot coming out of his nose and puking. Then it was our turn. No fun!......Steve1

[mnischalke 0]

I didn't like CS much on my first exposure at Perris Island. The room was so full of smoke, you literally could not see your hand in front of your face. I held my breath for as long as I could, couldn't hold it, sucked in a deep lungful and nearly coughed my head off. My head immediately emptied all of its fluid contents that weren't otherwise contained.

After that experience. I got to play with that stuff lots more. I learned that as soon as you come in contact without a mask, slow, shallow breaths are easy, and you can totally operate in a CS-filled environment. Contact lenses, are best left outside tho.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.