New 'DRD' MARD system

[Skydivesg 6]

So, is any one using or plan on using either of these devices in the US.

If so - who? on what rig?

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[JerryBaumchen 1,050]

Hi Sandy,

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So, is any one using or plan on using either of these devices in the US . . . If so - who? on what rig?

Is that question for me?

OK, I'll take it.

One major rig mfr ( who has people posting photos of their latest purchase of one of them ) did begin to put the RAX system on their rig. Then the point person who I was dealing left the company. I have not heard where they are at, if at all, since then, which was ~ 3 yrs ago.

One other major rig mfr once said to me that he had never heard anyone tell him that they were not going to buy his rig because it did not have a MARD.

It's there for anyone who wants it.

JerryBaumchen

[eric.fradet 17]

One other major rig mfr once said to me that he had never heard anyone tell him that they were not going to buy his rig because it did not have a MARD.
__________________________________________________

I think it is even worse than what, as I always said, the MARD system on the civilian market will kill more than it will save people, and if I count right, it is already the case ( 2 deaths fatalities because a MARD, how many saves because a MARD ?)

[mchamp 1]

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One other major rig mfr once said to me that he had never heard anyone tell him that they were not going to buy his rig because it did not have a MARD.
__________________________________________________

I think it is even worse than what, as I always said, the MARD system on the civilian market will kill more than it will save people, and if I count right, it is already the case ( 2 deaths fatalities because a MARD, how many saves because a MARD ?)

I believe you mis-understood. Highlighted above

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[skydiverek 55]

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I always said, the MARD system on the civilian market will kill more than it will save people

And how is it different in a military, where your Interlock system is being used?

[eric.fradet 17]

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I always said, the MARD system on the civilian market will kill more than it will save people

And how is it different in a military, wherte you Interlock system is being used?

____________________________________________________

well the only difference I see with MARD'use : military jumpers are paid to be killed while the civilian skydivers pay to survive, but at the end because rigging caution is superior in the army avoiding rigging errors , because military people do not use reactive main canopies making reserve sensitive with line twists after jettisonning, it makes it safer to be used in the Army, at the end in my mind MARD are not designed to safety but to not abort a mission because a cuttaway, that's it, think about that : how many people in the world are supposed to be killed in the sport because they cuttaway their main below 300 feet ? probably none or close to zero !, it would be the only time it could be useful to have a MARD ..
MARD is just a commercial thing, they are sold because some good buisnessman made you believe what there is a need, sport manufacturers knows there is no need but at the end they have to respond to their customers

[KellyF 16]

Thanks Jerry
Sandy, I'm constantly brainstorming how I would integrate the RAX into the Infinity, and I think I have it narrowed down. I haven't started building a prototype yet since there are always other fires to put out, and our sales are stronger than they've ever been

[Skydivesg 6]

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Hi Sandy,

Quote

So, is any one using or plan on using either of these devices in the US . . . If so - who? on what rig?

Is that question for me?

OK, I'll take it.

One major rig mfr ( who has people posting photos of their latest purchase of one of them ) did begin to put the RAX system on their rig. Then the point person who I was dealing left the company. I have not heard where they are at, if at all, since then, which was ~ 3 yrs ago.

One other major rig mfr once said to me that he had never heard anyone tell him that they were not going to buy his rig because it did not have a MARD.

It's there for anyone who wants it.

JerryBaumchen

Jerry, the question was for any one who would provide information.

Thank you for at least partially answering it.

Reading between the lines, (which I'm not good at) tells me that there is no rig company using either of the devices in the US at this time. (correct me if I'm wrong)

I will not try guessing the two companies which you are obviously reluctant to name.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[Skydivesg 6]

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Thanks Jerry
Sandy, I'm constantly brainstorming how I would integrate the RAX into the Infinity, and I think I have it narrowed down. I haven't started building a prototype yet since there are always other fires to put out, and our sales are stronger than they've ever been

Thanks for the info Kelly.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[Skydivesg 6]

_________________________________________________

I think it is even worse than what, as I always said, the MARD system on the civilian market will kill more than it will save people, and if I count right, it is already the case ( 2 deaths fatalities because a MARD, how many saves because a MARD ?)

[skydiverek 55]

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Of which two deaths are you speaking? Location? Circumstances?

Probably the tandem fatality. Skyhook complicated the situation there.

[JerryBaumchen 1,050]

Hi Sandy,

To the best of my understanding only UPT (Vector), Sunpath (Javelin), Aerodyne (Icon) and MARS in Europe are using the SkyHook.

A few European rig mfrs are using the RAX System.

Re: which you are obviously reluctant to name.

I feel that each company should really speak for themselves; I do not want to say anything that they might prefer I not say.

JerryBaumchen

[Skydivesg 6]

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Of which two deaths are you speaking? Location? Circumstances?

Probably the tandem fatality. Skyhook complicated the situation there.

If that is the case he is talking about (I would like him to confirm that it is) then he is puttting all the blame on the Skyhook.

I know that incident was discussed quite extensively (and I really don't want to re-hash all of it again). However if one takes the position that the MARD caused those deaths then shouldn't one also admit that the deaths would not have occurred had the AAD not started the reserve deployment sequence in the first place?

So maybe we should attribute the deaths to the AAD and not the MARD.

Or maybe we should blame both and not use either device?

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[Skydivesg 6]

Jerry, thank you for the response.

I'm not dissing you for being vague. I completely understand the need to keep some things close to the vest.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[KellyF 16]

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If that is the case he is talking about (I would like him to confirm that it is) then he is puttting all the blame on the Skyhook.

However if one takes the position that the MARD caused those deaths then shouldn't one also admit that the deaths would not have occurred had the AAD not started the reserve deployment sequence in the first place?

I think it's getting about time to start differentiating between the Skyhook and any other type of MARD that may be being discussed. The Skyhook is a MARD, but a MARD is NOT necessarily a Skyhook. Of all the incidents where the Skyhook has been involved over the past 10 years or so that I know of, only two would have had the same outcome if another MARD had been involved- Morten Pedersen's reserve baglock that he fought free, and the other guy in DeLand that had his RSL misrouted. All of the other ones have been complicated by the specifics of the Skyhook- most notably the red seal thread that holds the lanyard to the hook, and the Collin's lanyard. Both of those features make a Skyhook equipped rig behave differently than the majority of the rigs in use in some circumstances.

[-ftp- 0]

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I always said, the MARD system on the civilian market will kill more than it will save people

care to share some data? By the way, are you lumping all MARD's in one bucket?

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[Skydivesg 6]

As far as I can see, the only MARD being used/sold in the US is the Skyhook.

I can't comment on rigs or MARDs from other countries.

This forum is obviously world wide but my knowledge is limited to US rigs.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[riggerrob 558]

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Of which two deaths are you speaking? Location? Circumstances?

Probably the tandem fatality. Skyhook complicated the situation there.

.........................................................................

The tandem (Sigma) fatality was complicated by its Skyhook, Collins lanyard and lack of staging loop.

Staging loops were fashionable back when everyone jumped a heavy 26 foot diameter Lopo reserve. However, when square reserves came into fashion, most container manufacturers switched from staging loops to friction (between the free-bag and reserve container) for staging. Friction worked okay with light-weight reserves that were compatible with that specific size of container.
But how many of us have seen "friction" compromised by hopelessly mis-matched reserve canopy and container sizes?

After that Sigma fatality (late 2008), UPT issued a Service Bulletin telling Sigma owners to install staging loops, because it appears that the weight of a tandem reserve is important.

OTOH Strong Enterprises stuck with an antiquated reserve container design (that included a staging loop) in their Dual Hawk tandems.

Most sport reserves are far too light to pull a Collins lanyard.

[skydiverek 55]

Are brand new Microns and smaller V3s manufatcured with the Staging Loop and the Yellow Loop?

[theonlyski 3]

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Are brand new Microns and smaller V3s manufatcured with the Staging Loop and the Yellow Loop?

I believe so on the staging loop, they're optional for sport gear IIRC.

As for the yellow loop, I think you're talking about the Collins lanyard, which I believe is only part of the RSL system. No RSL = No Collins Lanyard.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[skydiverek 55]

I was talking about the:

Staging Loop:
http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Stagging-loop/INSTRUCT_005___Staging_Loop_Packing_Instructions_14_18_18%5B1%5D.pdf

Yellow Loop:
http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Stagging-loop/INSTRUCT_008___Split_RSL___Vector_3_Installation_Instructions_14_17_45%5B1%5D.pdf

[theonlyski 3]

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I was talking about the:

Staging Loop:
http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Stagging-loop/INSTRUCT_005___Staging_Loop_Packing_Instructions_14_18_18%5B1%5D.pdf

Yellow Loop:
http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Stagging-loop/INSTRUCT_008___Split_RSL___Vector_3_Installation_Instructions_14_17_45%5B1%5D.pdf

That is the Collins lanyard on the RSL. No RSL = No Collins lanyard.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[matthewcline 0]

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I was talking about the:

Staging Loop:
http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Stagging-loop/INSTRUCT_005___Staging_Loop_Packing_Instructions_14_18_18%5B1%5D.pdf

Yellow Loop:
http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Stagging-loop/INSTRUCT_008___Split_RSL___Vector_3_Installation_Instructions_14_17_45%5B1%5D.pdf

The Yellow loop is the Collins Lanyard.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[skydiverek 55]

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The Yellow loop is the Collins Lanyard.

Matt

Correct, but the Collins Lanyard evolved from the 'external' white piece of line (introduced in 1998), to black internal loop, to yellow loop introduced in 2009 (as a response to the tandem fatality).

So, I was asking about the 3rd generation of Collins Lanyard.

[matthewcline 0]

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The Yellow loop is the Collins Lanyard.

Matt

Correct, but the Collins Lanyard evolved from the 'external' white piece of line (introduced in 1998), to black internal loop, to yellow loop introduced in 2005 (as a response to the tandem fatality).

So, I was asking about the 3rd generation of Collins Lanyard.

In reading the documents you linked it does appear that the new Collins lanyard is Standard on all UPT Sport Rigs.

But I bet UPT can answer that better than I.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!