DZO's Opinions - Yes, AFF or SL, again!

[Gato 0]

I know this topic has been revisited time and time again, but I'd like (if possible) for a few DZOs to chime in on this.

Before I go any further, let it be known that my intention is to seek information, not be a troll, or incite an online riot. I have 7 SL jumps, 4 of them being PRCPs. Also, I'm not asking which one I should pursue - I've already made that choice. (Which is none of your beeswax.)

I've been trying to get my A, or at least off student status, for a few months now, and with the winds of the midwest, it's taking awhile to accomplish. I expressed this frustration to an experienced jumper on my home DZ, and he said, "You know, you can do AFF jumps if you want to. Just go to this DZ, and talk to ______."

So I decided to give it a try. I drove 3 hours to the DZ, and right away they tell me I can do either a 2- or 1-jumpmaster AFF jump with the option to release, or I can do an IAD practice throw, and then a H&P.

I asked them, "What do you think would be the best thing for me to do?" After all, I'm a noob, and I don't know shit. The reply was, "Well, IAD would be closer to what you're used to, but AFF will get you off student status faster, and anyway, AFF produces a better skydiver."

The thing is, every DZ I've been to, or talked-to on the phone, has given me their own version of this shit. Go to the SL place, and that's what makes a better skydiver. Tandem progression to AFF is the same line. IAD is also the best way. And none of them are consistent about where to place a cross-over student.

So my question for you very wise DZOs is this: Why do some of you allow this, when we all know the point can't be proven either way? Is it simply a marketing thing, or do you actually have data to back it up? I don't have a problem with opinions, but blanket statements like those above are irresponsible, in my opinion.

Again, I mean no disrespect, but being a student is difficult enough without having to worry if I've chosen the deadlier instruction method.

Thanks. Flame on.

T.I.N.S.

[matthewcline 0]

Actually your still on student status till your licensed (USPA GM DZ that is).

YOU are who makes the better skydiver. No matter the method we all end up at the same License (again USPA stuff) with the same requirements to get it.

Do what your comfortable in and can afford. Just keep jumping!

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[PhreeZone 15]

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Again, I mean no disrespect, but being a student is difficult enough without having to worry if I've chosen the deadlier instruction method.

Each method has its own risks.

SL/IAD - exiting unstable and getting caught in the deploying canopy
AFF - loss of stability and loss of an instructor can put you deploying unstable with an entanglement
Tandem - There is a long list of tandem specific malfunctions

None is really "deadlier" then the rest.

People think their method of instruction is the best. If they lack confidence in their own program then that leads to less qualified students. Some people like AFF since you get freefall instruction from day 1 and at 10 jumps an AFF student has at least 350 seconds of freefall and usually closer to 600. Compare that to a SL/IAD student that at 10 jumps might have 30 seconds freefall. In their eyes thats a better skydiver. At a SL/IAD DZ they might see the focus on the canopy skills as a better skydiver.

If the DZ is following the USPA ISP program its really easy to figure out if you are a CAT B or C student and then can design a skydive around the next Catagory that you need to complete or to include any thing that was not complete on earlier catagories.

In the Midwest we have to worry about winds more then most places, show up early and get on the first load or two and usually the winds are low enough to be done in no time.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[WGore 0]

If winds are a problem it doesn't make any difference which program you are pursuing there is a safety limit. If you have the money to pursue AFF you will get to a certain level quicker. If you aren't well heeled the SL or IAD will keep you jumping more regularly, which is the key to advancing. As a student the more back to back jumps you make, the more comfortable and competent you will be.

GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

[Gato 0]

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If winds are a problem it doesn't make any difference which program you are pursuing there is a safety limit.

Yes, I understand that, and I get where you're coming from. My questions really had to do with the lack of consistency with regard to placement in the ISP, and why so many people represent their methods as the best way.

Case in point: One DZ I visited wanted me to do a Single AFFI Cat.C jump. Another insisted I must do three tandems, and then single-JM AFF jumps. This is after they saw my logbook, and assessed my skill level & attitude, etc..

I'm not saying either are bad (or good), I'm just saying that it's confusing.

PS: I also realize I can't be angry with the wind. I just do my best to always fart in opposition to the wind whenever possible, just in case it might help.

T.I.N.S.

[WGore 0]

Well they are selling skydiving training that suits their way of doing things or their staff. I know it's not much help but that's the way it is. Opinions on best methods are like you know what and we all have one.
I started in Nov way back in the day and when I had about 10 jumps we had 13 straight bad weekends. I learned a lot sitting in a bar listening to war stories. Not the ideal method but I did take knowledge away from it.

GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

[bob.dino 0]

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Yes, I understand that, and I get where you're coming from. My questions really had to do with the lack of consistency with regard to placement in the ISP, and why so many people represent their methods as the best way.

Well, no-one's going to be saying to you "Our teaching methods suck. Go somewhere else. If you jump with us, you'll die. Horribly."

Different instructors have different opinions on the efficacy of different teaching methods, and different students respond differently to different instructional styles.

[skr 1]

I think who you are hanging out with and learning from
is way more important than whether you are doing SL
or AFF.

Everybody needs pretty much the same stuff in their
early jumps - the first 100 or so - and by the "same
stuff" I mean flying your canopy, both the mechanics
and the development of judgement, plus weather and
spotting and gear and packing and all the stuff you
need to make an intelligent parachute jump.

Whatever freefall stuff fits in there for entertainment
and inspiration is good, but all freefall fits within the
framework of a parachute jump, and that's where
most of the focus should be in the early jumps.

Skr

[Baksteen 84]

Like everyone else said.

Everyone thinks their training method best, both the student taking the course, and the instructor teaching it. I'm no exception.

But maybe you should ask those instructors (but especially relatively new students too) what they think are the pros and cons of their method. Don't ask how they feel it compares to othger courses, but
make your own list, compare, and choose.

For instance, this is the way I see it:
Jumping in winter at my DZ means that an SL student gets to jump more often - the conditions and clouds are more likely to be ok up to 3500 ft than all the way up to 12000 ft.

OTOH, an AFF student gets freefall coaching and feedback from their instructors from day 1, while a SL student has no point of reference in the air at all and has to rely chiefly on ground briefings; and on debriefings based on what they felt, rahter then what the instructor saw.

AFF is more intense and you need more money up front. You progress quicker because more is demanded of you per jump.
SL is more gradual and cheaper in the beginning. It takes longer to get there, but there is a lot less pressure per jump and in addition, you'll be jumping from higher and higher, rather then lower and lower.
Is there a "best" method? I think not. Each method has its own advantages and disadvantages, and it is entirely up to you to choose the one that you think you can work with.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[marks2065 0]

i am not a dzo or a currant instructor - i do have 600 tandems and 2400 jumps and have seen many different training methods - the things that i feel a student needs to focus on are stable body position, altitude awareness and canopy control because theese skills are manditory to be safe - whatever program you choose make sure they work alot on those areas and ask alot of questions about this - question your instructors and understand the answers from them

[andm31 0]

Quote

But maybe you should ask those instructors (but especially relatively new students too) what they think are the pros and cons of their method. Don't ask how they feel it compares to othger courses, but
make your own list, compare, and choose.

Here's my opinion as a jumper pretty fresh out of training. I took a static line course (the only kind we have at our dz) and I can see some pros and cons with it.

One problem is that it takes a lot of time, to get your license, here in Sweden you need to pass 24 different jumps, six to get of the static line for instance. Something that takes more time mean that more people are hesitant to put that time in and you loose som jumpers that might have passed the course if it had been faster. One guy at another dz told me he had switched (on the recomendation of his instructor) from SL to AFF as he couldn't get stable as he jumped of the plane, kept tumbling, with AFF he was able to become and stay stable. Me myself I never had a tumbling problem and was pretty much stable from the start.

I do however not regret going through all those jumps (took some 37 jumps to pass the course) because at the end of the day I got to fly and land the canopy 37 times and that was really good practice. I'm not scared about doing hop n pops at all, whereas a lot of the AFF people are really scared about jumping low, and I still got to do the high altitude jumps so I'm not scared of those either.

I think, doing SL courses lets you build up your confidence in a completely different way, but I do understand that a lot of instructors and jumpers like AFF better, but quality wise I feel SL courses are better when it comes to what the student can manage after completing the course.

Blue skies!

Anders Samuelsson
www.anderssamuelsson.se

[riggerrob 558]

I have said this before and I will say it again: "No method is best!
Rather, different methods are better at teaching different skills at different stages in the learning process."

For example: the perfect school mixes tandem, ground launching, IAD, wind tunnel and AFF.

Tandem is best at getting students over their initial fear and sensory over-load, but the benefits of tandem fade after two or three jumps.

Ground launching is the best way to teach the basics of canopy control, because you can do dozens of flights in a day.

IAD is the best way to teach students how to handle their fear of exits.

Wind tunnels are the best place to teach the basics of stability, turns, back loops and deploying.

Finally, AFF is the best way to combine all those skills together while developing time/altitude awareness.