paul.Mcallister 0 #1 February 8, 2012 Hi All, I am looking for some input. I started the sport in June 2011 and at the end of the season I got 50 jumps in, so that puts me firmly in the nooby catergory. I am 170 all wringing wet, 195 out the door. I have just got my first rig, Jav 4, Saber 2-170 / PDR 160. I have Pulse 190 that I plan on using this coming season. I may jump the Saber 2 170 in the following season. My question is about the gap between a PDR 160 and a Pulse 190. Is this a big enough issue for me to change is to a PD 176R? Risk - Reserve out is a high stress situation - Smaller canopy lands faster - Different landing characteristics Versus: - Cut aways occur roughly in 1 in 500 jumps and the gap will only exist for seasion (roll the dice) - Is landing something hotter/faster more a matter of an awareness/faster Thanks, Paul Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #2 February 8, 2012 Not in my opinion.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
degeneration 5 #3 February 8, 2012 Or there is the possibility you have a mal on your next jump. So jump 51, landing the smallest canopy you've ever flown, which has different flight characteristics to the canopy you may be flying (Sabre 2 - don't know about your previous 50 jumps though), and you are loading it at 1.22. Would you be comfortable with this? If yes, then go for it, it is your choice, if no, then reconsider. Get an Optimum or other low pack volume reserve, so you can get a more suitable size reserve in there.Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-ftp- 0 #4 February 8, 2012 Sounds to me like you bought your second rig first, but I tend to take things slow. what did you fly for your first jumps? What do your mentors say about your rig? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craigbey 0 #5 February 8, 2012 Why not find out for yourself... http://www.performancedesigns.com/demo_sport.asp QuoteDon’t forget about your Reserve!! We offer all available sizes of the PD Reserve and the Optimum Reserve, set up as mains with an attachment point for your d-bag and pilot chute. This is a great opportunity to become familiar with your reserve canopy without being in a stressful emergency situation and to decide what size you are comfortable with in every situation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #6 February 8, 2012 You're probably not ready to put a loaded reverve where you may need to safely on the next jump you make. Never get on the plane today with gear on your back that you 'might' be expierenced enough to jump tomorrow...sometimes it works out & sometimes tomorrow never comes. Switch 'em out, sell the smaller one and buy jump tickets...in 36 years & 14 cut-aways, I have NEVER wished I was on a smaller reserve than I had over me! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paul.Mcallister 0 #7 February 8, 2012 QuoteSounds to me like you bought your second rig first, but I tend to take things slow. Quote Why I have this rig is a 3 beer story, but the sort story is that there is a personal attachment to it. With that said, I am conservative and I won't be jumping it until I am good to go. Quote what did you fly for your first jumps? What do your mentors say about your rig? At the end of the season I was flying a Pulse 190 I am a pilot so I am used to dialing in the aim point, different approach speeds, and flares so it isn't a big jump for me to line up a sight picture and just adapt to the approach speed. Mind you, if I had just cut away a spinning mal and I just got in the saddle at 1500', I bet I wouldn't be on top of my game either Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #8 February 8, 2012 Mind you, if I had just cut away a spinning mal and I just got in the saddle at 1500', I bet I wouldn't be on top of my game either Quote How about if you were unconscious and headed downwind into a concrete parking lot? Just sayin'... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites voilsb 1 #9 February 9, 2012 I have a Javelin J-4. I know for a fact it will comfortably fit a PDR-193/OP-218. The SA-170/PL-190 will also very easily fit.Brian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites paul.Mcallister 0 #10 February 9, 2012 QuoteI have a Javelin J-4. I know for a fact it will comfortably fit a PDR-193/OP-218. The SA-170/PL-190 will also very easily fit. Brian, this is really good to know. Sunpath told me the recommended reserve was a PDR 176, so I thought I was limited to 176 or Optimum 193. I guess it begs the question though, if I stuff something bigger in there than what the manufacturer recommends am I risking deployment issues. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #11 February 9, 2012 Sun Path container sizing chart: http://sunpath.com/web_en/index.php?menu_level1=3&menu_level2=5 Nearly every rig manufacturer has a sizing chart that you can referenceMy reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 615 #12 February 9, 2012 Yes, Start with the sizing chart written by the container manufacturer. You can usually get away with a reserve one size larger (e.g. 15 square feet) than recommended by the container manufacturer, but risk incurring the wrath of your ^%$#@! rigger. Two sizes larger ... and you will definitely incur the wrath of your rigger! Hah! Hah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ctrph8 0 #13 February 9, 2012 Your other option is to demo a 160R. Put a few jumps on it and see what you think. I agree that flying the smallest canopy you have ever flown on your first reserve ride might not be the brightest idea. Getting familiar with it under controlled circumstances would help. It would also give you a better idea of whether or not this is the right reserve for you. QuoteHi All, I am looking for some input. I started the sport in June 2011 and at the end of the season I got 50 jumps in, so that puts me firmly in the nooby catergory. I am 170 all wringing wet, 195 out the door. I have just got my first rig, Jav 4, Saber 2-170 / PDR 160. I have Pulse 190 that I plan on using this coming season. I may jump the Saber 2 170 in the following season. My question is about the gap between a PDR 160 and a Pulse 190. Is this a big enough issue for me to change is to a PD 176R? Risk - Reserve out is a high stress situation - Smaller canopy lands faster - Different landing characteristics Versus: - Cut aways occur roughly in 1 in 500 jumps and the gap will only exist for seasion (roll the dice) - Is landing something hotter/faster more a matter of an awareness/faster Thanks, Paul Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites paul.Mcallister 0 #14 February 9, 2012 Quote How about if you were unconscious and headed downwind into a concrete parking lot? Just sayin'... Ha ha... yes that would be bad for sure, but hey, even the best canopy flying skills are not going to help you then I am thinking in that situation about 400 square feet would really nice Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #15 February 9, 2012 ...or something closer to 1;1 might give ya better odds for survival than something loaded a lot higher. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites voilsb 1 #16 February 9, 2012 QuoteQuoteI have a Javelin J-4. I know for a fact it will comfortably fit a PDR-193/OP-218. The SA-170/PL-190 will also very easily fit. Brian, this is really good to know. Sunpath told me the recommended reserve was a PDR 176, so I thought I was limited to 176 or Optimum 193. I guess it begs the question though, if I stuff something bigger in there than what the manufacturer recommends am I risking deployment issues.Yeah, a 176 is it's "official" size, but it's EASY to pack a 176 in there. a 193 packs pretty well, too. I've got a Raven-II in mine (218 sq ft) and a friend has a PDR-193 in his J4, and they're both about the same. And it's good to be concerned about deployment issues, but it's not like your rigger will need to sweat much to pack a 193 in there. If you're particularly concerned, it's not a bad idea to ask the guy who'll be doing the pack jobs, however.Brian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #17 February 9, 2012 Quote Yeah, a 176 is it's "official" size, Nope. 176 is the smallest "recommended" reserve size. J4K 176 - Raven II (Yes, Raven II is 218 sq.ft.) Quote And it's good to be concerned about deployment issues, but it's not like your rigger will need to sweat much to pack a 193 in there. At the risk of incurring the wrath of the riggers out there... A rigger's sweat is the least of my concerns when choosing a container and reserve size. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pchapman 278 #18 February 9, 2012 Quote A rigger's sweat is the least of my concerns when choosing a container and reserve size. I couldn't let that stand without a little counterattack!Well as a rigger I'm not happy with the dumbasses who buy a rig that's small for their reserve size, because a smaller rig is always better and cooler. And then they complain that the rig looks all bulgy, poorly packed, and uglier than other rigs. It is particularly bad for semi-external pilot chute rigs where seating the edges of the pilot chute cap gets harder. I've got to work extra hard to avoid having it look like I did a crummy pack job. (That being said, if you have limited financial means and that's the combo you end up with, and appearance isn't the most important, there certainly is a range of reserve sizes that will fit in a given rig.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites paul.Mcallister 0 #19 February 9, 2012 Nope. 176 is the smallest "recommended" reserve size. J4K 176 - Raven II (Yes, Raven II is 218 sq.ft.) Hi all, I probably should have shared the background on why I was asking about reserve sizes. I got an email from Sunpath telling me that the recommended reserve was a PD 176R so I understood as being the upper limit. With that (incorrect) assumption I was wondering was it really worth the effort to go from a PD 160 to a PD 176 just to put another 16 square feet of reserve over my head. With that in mind I asked a few coaches: Coach number 1 says, don't sweat it, jump the rig as it is, for you it is not particularly aggressive. Coach number 2 says, yep a bigger main is good idea, do a season on a 190, given your weight the reserve gap isn't too aggressive Coach number 3 says, yep definitely do a season on the 190, but be aware of the performance difference of the reserve. If I can put 193 square feet of reserve over my head then this is an absolute "no brainer" More is good :) Thanks to everyone for there input. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #8 February 8, 2012 Mind you, if I had just cut away a spinning mal and I just got in the saddle at 1500', I bet I wouldn't be on top of my game either Quote How about if you were unconscious and headed downwind into a concrete parking lot? Just sayin'... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voilsb 1 #9 February 9, 2012 I have a Javelin J-4. I know for a fact it will comfortably fit a PDR-193/OP-218. The SA-170/PL-190 will also very easily fit.Brian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paul.Mcallister 0 #10 February 9, 2012 QuoteI have a Javelin J-4. I know for a fact it will comfortably fit a PDR-193/OP-218. The SA-170/PL-190 will also very easily fit. Brian, this is really good to know. Sunpath told me the recommended reserve was a PDR 176, so I thought I was limited to 176 or Optimum 193. I guess it begs the question though, if I stuff something bigger in there than what the manufacturer recommends am I risking deployment issues. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #11 February 9, 2012 Sun Path container sizing chart: http://sunpath.com/web_en/index.php?menu_level1=3&menu_level2=5 Nearly every rig manufacturer has a sizing chart that you can referenceMy reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 615 #12 February 9, 2012 Yes, Start with the sizing chart written by the container manufacturer. You can usually get away with a reserve one size larger (e.g. 15 square feet) than recommended by the container manufacturer, but risk incurring the wrath of your ^%$#@! rigger. Two sizes larger ... and you will definitely incur the wrath of your rigger! Hah! Hah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ctrph8 0 #13 February 9, 2012 Your other option is to demo a 160R. Put a few jumps on it and see what you think. I agree that flying the smallest canopy you have ever flown on your first reserve ride might not be the brightest idea. Getting familiar with it under controlled circumstances would help. It would also give you a better idea of whether or not this is the right reserve for you. QuoteHi All, I am looking for some input. I started the sport in June 2011 and at the end of the season I got 50 jumps in, so that puts me firmly in the nooby catergory. I am 170 all wringing wet, 195 out the door. I have just got my first rig, Jav 4, Saber 2-170 / PDR 160. I have Pulse 190 that I plan on using this coming season. I may jump the Saber 2 170 in the following season. My question is about the gap between a PDR 160 and a Pulse 190. Is this a big enough issue for me to change is to a PD 176R? Risk - Reserve out is a high stress situation - Smaller canopy lands faster - Different landing characteristics Versus: - Cut aways occur roughly in 1 in 500 jumps and the gap will only exist for seasion (roll the dice) - Is landing something hotter/faster more a matter of an awareness/faster Thanks, Paul Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paul.Mcallister 0 #14 February 9, 2012 Quote How about if you were unconscious and headed downwind into a concrete parking lot? Just sayin'... Ha ha... yes that would be bad for sure, but hey, even the best canopy flying skills are not going to help you then I am thinking in that situation about 400 square feet would really nice Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #15 February 9, 2012 ...or something closer to 1;1 might give ya better odds for survival than something loaded a lot higher. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voilsb 1 #16 February 9, 2012 QuoteQuoteI have a Javelin J-4. I know for a fact it will comfortably fit a PDR-193/OP-218. The SA-170/PL-190 will also very easily fit. Brian, this is really good to know. Sunpath told me the recommended reserve was a PDR 176, so I thought I was limited to 176 or Optimum 193. I guess it begs the question though, if I stuff something bigger in there than what the manufacturer recommends am I risking deployment issues.Yeah, a 176 is it's "official" size, but it's EASY to pack a 176 in there. a 193 packs pretty well, too. I've got a Raven-II in mine (218 sq ft) and a friend has a PDR-193 in his J4, and they're both about the same. And it's good to be concerned about deployment issues, but it's not like your rigger will need to sweat much to pack a 193 in there. If you're particularly concerned, it's not a bad idea to ask the guy who'll be doing the pack jobs, however.Brian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #17 February 9, 2012 Quote Yeah, a 176 is it's "official" size, Nope. 176 is the smallest "recommended" reserve size. J4K 176 - Raven II (Yes, Raven II is 218 sq.ft.) Quote And it's good to be concerned about deployment issues, but it's not like your rigger will need to sweat much to pack a 193 in there. At the risk of incurring the wrath of the riggers out there... A rigger's sweat is the least of my concerns when choosing a container and reserve size. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 278 #18 February 9, 2012 Quote A rigger's sweat is the least of my concerns when choosing a container and reserve size. I couldn't let that stand without a little counterattack!Well as a rigger I'm not happy with the dumbasses who buy a rig that's small for their reserve size, because a smaller rig is always better and cooler. And then they complain that the rig looks all bulgy, poorly packed, and uglier than other rigs. It is particularly bad for semi-external pilot chute rigs where seating the edges of the pilot chute cap gets harder. I've got to work extra hard to avoid having it look like I did a crummy pack job. (That being said, if you have limited financial means and that's the combo you end up with, and appearance isn't the most important, there certainly is a range of reserve sizes that will fit in a given rig.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paul.Mcallister 0 #19 February 9, 2012 Nope. 176 is the smallest "recommended" reserve size. J4K 176 - Raven II (Yes, Raven II is 218 sq.ft.) Hi all, I probably should have shared the background on why I was asking about reserve sizes. I got an email from Sunpath telling me that the recommended reserve was a PD 176R so I understood as being the upper limit. With that (incorrect) assumption I was wondering was it really worth the effort to go from a PD 160 to a PD 176 just to put another 16 square feet of reserve over my head. With that in mind I asked a few coaches: Coach number 1 says, don't sweat it, jump the rig as it is, for you it is not particularly aggressive. Coach number 2 says, yep a bigger main is good idea, do a season on a 190, given your weight the reserve gap isn't too aggressive Coach number 3 says, yep definitely do a season on the 190, but be aware of the performance difference of the reserve. If I can put 193 square feet of reserve over my head then this is an absolute "no brainer" More is good :) Thanks to everyone for there input. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voilsb 1 #20 February 9, 2012 Quote Quote Yeah, a 176 is it's "official" size, Nope. 176 is the smallest "recommended" reserve size. J4K 176 - Raven II (Yes, Raven II is 218 sq.ft.) Quote And it's good to be concerned about deployment issues, but it's not like your rigger will need to sweat much to pack a 193 in there. At the risk of incurring the wrath of the riggers out there... A rigger's sweat is the least of my concerns when choosing a container and reserve size. thanks for the correction. I was tired and misinterpreted the chartBrian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #21 February 9, 2012 Quote At the risk of incurring the wrath of the riggers out there... A rigger's sweat is the least of my concerns when choosing a container and reserve size. Let's see YOU pack it then!"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,485 #22 February 9, 2012 Quote At the risk of incurring the wrath of the riggers out there... A rigger's sweat is the least of my concerns when choosing a container and reserve size. Well, there are other reasons not to overstuff. Potential deployment issues. It would really suck to choose an appropriate size reserve, but have it not open in time because it was stuffed into too small of a rig. Damage issues. Repeatedly squeezing too much fabric into too little space will pull out grommets, tear out stitches, that sort of thing."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #23 February 10, 2012 Quote Quote At the risk of incurring the wrath of the riggers out there... A rigger's sweat is the least of my concerns when choosing a container and reserve size. Well, there are other reasons not to overstuff. Potential deployment issues. It would really suck to choose an appropriate size reserve, but have it not open in time because it was stuffed into too small of a rig. Damage issues. Repeatedly squeezing too much fabric into too little space will pull out grommets, tear out stitches, that sort of thing. Absolutely right. That's why manufacturers have the recommendations. Believe me, they are conservative recommendations. If one elects to exceed the recommendations, well then, those things you mentioned could happen, yes.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #24 February 10, 2012 Quote Quote At the risk of incurring the wrath of the riggers out there... A rigger's sweat is the least of my concerns when choosing a container and reserve size. Let's see YOU pack it then! You should have been here to see me packing reserves in the rigging class. After so many pops in the face with reserve PCs, I decided rigging is not something I want to do. Too much work, not enough pay to cover the cost of bandages. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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