Canopy differences

[airborne47 0]

I just came back to the sport after a three and a half year absence. And only 158 jumps. I was flying a zero p Conquest 170 (South African) when i left. So being how it had been three and a half years. And i had put on about ten pounds. Thought i would get a 190. But got a good deal on a Falcon 170 which is F 111. I only had a few jumps on it and was haveing problems landing it. Which i compensated for by doing PLFs. When i really screwed up! So decieded to upsize to a 210. Because i drive truck for a living and don't get to jump vary often. So am wondering two things. What's the main difference between an F 111 and a zero p canopy? And what canopies should i stay away from if i want to avoid hard openings?

[KollegeKay 0]

As per “Choosing the Right Canopy, Part 2” – Cells, Shapes, and skins:

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Zero-porosity fabric has a coating, usually silicone-based, which prevents the porosity from increasing

F-111 is no longer manufactured (and is actually a name brand), but new low-porosity material is being used today

Zero-P
CONS: Higher pack volume more difficult to pack
PROS: Last longer than low-porosity fabric (like the F-111), more efficient wings, better performance


Choosing the Right Canopy by Scott Miller

~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~
---Kollege Kay--,--'-@
Newbie Skydiver

[wmw999 2,122]

In a nutshell, F111 (or any other lower-porosity material) still lets air flow through the fabric, rather than only through the seam holes and the front. Because of that, it deteriorates, and will become more porous over time, which makes it let you down faster, and it will flare less and less effectively.

Usually non-Zpo canopies will last up to maybe500 jumps at most. They're also not commonly loaded at more than about 1.1:1.

Most reserves are made of low-porosity fabric, but since most reserves have fewer than 5 jumps, that deterioration is irrelevant.

The Silhouette is a canopy that combines zero-p with low-porosity fabric to make packing easier, without seriously compromising the flare and flying characteristics of the canopy.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[davelepka 4]

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What's the main difference between an F 111 and a zero p canopy? And what canopies should i stay away from if i want to avoid hard openings?

Long story short, F-111 is old tech and it's flare performance will deteriorate over time. It's not what you want, just stick with Z-po canopies.

In terms of openings, the big Sabres are not great. Canopies you might consider would be the Sabre2, Spectre, Pilot, Storm, or Silhouette, none of them are know to open hard in the larger sizes.

[NWFlyer 2]

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What's the main difference between an F 111 and a zero p canopy? And what canopies should i stay away from if i want to avoid hard openings?

Long story short, F-111 is old tech and it's flare performance will deteriorate over time. It's not what you want, just stick with Z-po canopies.

In terms of openings, the big Sabres are not great. Canopies you might consider would be the Sabre2, Spectre, Pilot, Storm, or Silhouette, none of them are know to open hard in the larger sizes.

My Pilot 210 slammed me a couple times in 300 jumps on it, though generally it was a snivelly bitch.

I'd add the Pulse to that list. In 300+ jumps on it the only hard opening I had was due to a pilot chute issue. It's taken good care of me. Positive but not hard openings.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[davelepka 4]

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My Pilot 210 slammed me a couple times in 300 jumps on it, though generally it was a snivelly bitch.

Ironicly, the only canopy I ever had that NEVER opened hard was F-111. My PD-190 always (yes always) took 1000ft to open. The slider had a hole in it so big there was more hole than fabric, and I pakced it with the nose flaked wide open, and it still took 1000ft.

Of course, it had 1000 jumps on it, and I bought it for $100 from a guy who stalled it on landing and broke both wrists, putting him out of the sport. A few years later that same guy ditched a plane in Lake Erie after running out of gas, and a few years after that he was the cheif instructor at a local flight shcool.

But yeah, any properly flying canopy can and will open hard from time to time.

[airborne47 0]

Thanks for the replies. i was curiouse because my first canopy was a Falcon 210 and i really liked it. Then i went to the 170 (after jumping a few 190s) So was thinking of maybe another Falcon 210? But think i'll go with a zero p now! I had a seriouse neck injury in the past. And should be dead or paralyzed. And had one hard opening which took over a month to recover from. BUT i'm sure it was self induced as i was at a boogie. (with low experience) And let myself be talked into going 1000 feet lower then normal before deploying. And am sure i dumped straight out of my track! Then on my second jump on this canopy i had another hard opening and was told that's common with those canopies so want to be more selective this time. I realize it can happen at any time on any canopy. But want to (try) and limit the odds as much as i can.

[DaVinciflies 0]

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Thought i would get a 190. But got a good deal on a Falcon 170 which is F 111. I only had a few jumps on it and was haveing problems landing it.

So the question is - was it really a good deal?

A low price on an inappropriate canopy is not really a good deal, IMO. A low price on the right canopy is the bargain we should all be searching for.

[skybytch 259]

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I had a seriouse neck injury in the past.

If possible, put a few jumps on a Spectre with Dacron lines before you make your canopy purchase. Spectres are known for soft openings (but like any other canopy, they have and do occasionally slam people). Dacron lines stretch on opening, which reduces the forces exerted on your body. The combination creates the softest, most comfortable openings I've ever had (I've jumped Furys, PD190's, PD170's, Ravens, Mavericks, Sabres, Safires and Spectres).

[btvr 0]

I hear the Safire2 opens nicely. My Triathlon 210 opens nice. Never had a hard opening on it in over 150 jumps. But Triathlon seems to be a 4 letter word in skydiving. Don't know why though. I have no complaints.

[pchapman 261]

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Thanks for the replies. i was curiouse because my first canopy was a Falcon 210 and i really liked it. Then i went to the 170 (after jumping a few 190s)

That's actually another thing about F-111 style canopies (both the fabric and typical design style). Beyond a certain wing loading they rapidly become much more difficult to land softly. For zero-p, one can keep on downsizing a lot and still land softly, IF one has the appropriate skills.

So that's how a Falcon 210 may have been OK still but the 170, especially if it has more jumps on it, wasn't comfortable to land.

[theonlyski 3]

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I hear the Safire2 opens nicely.

Safire2 169 @ ~1.2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9c5Ra0mcwo

(note, I did get them to send me a new slider thats larger, but this is the way that works best for me)

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[chemfx 0]

What is the size diff from your old slider?

[Hellis 0]

If I had a canopy that opend like that, it would be doing CReW with my freebag

[DaVinciflies 0]

I really hope those were solo Hop n' Pops because you showed very little sign of any effort to look out for other canopies during or after opening.

The slider can wait until you've ensured you're not about to wrap someone.

[theonlyski 3]

Ahh yes, the anonymous arm chair quarterbacker.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[theonlyski 3]

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If I had a canopy that opend like that, it would be doing CReW with my freebag

Ya should see/feel the sub-terminal openings!

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[theonlyski 3]

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What is the size diff from your old slider?

Pretty substantial difference. Don't have the exact measurements handy. Will try to remember to get them this weekend.

ETA: While troubleshooting the opening issues, I tried THIS slider (21"x28") which were slightly better openings than the factory one. My factory slider was 18.75"x31”

The new one is much bigger, I'll TRY to get the measurements this weekend for ya, if you want.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[DaVinciflies 0]

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Ahh yes, the anonymous arm chair quarterbacker.

Take it or leave it - it's a valid point.

[chemfx 0]

I possible yes.
Thnx

[Bertt 0]

Don't let Bytch's comments about dacron lines get lost in the shuffle. They will absolutely save your ass.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[airborne47 0]

Answer. Nope. And point taken. But we learn with experience!

[airborne47 0]

Thanks will keep that in mind. hopefully i'll be able to make it to a holdiday boogie and get the chance to jump a demo or two.

[airborne47 0]

I've jumped a Triathalon rental and didn't have any complaints. I don't have a lot of experience/knowledge so don't know why people would think that way? But don't care if i'm one of (the cool kids) or not. I realize i will never be one of the greats of the sport. And have NO DESIRE to be a super swooper! But just because i can't jump as often as i would like. Does not mean i want to call it quits and sit on the coach. I just want to be able to jump once in awhile as safely as i can! If that means i use a bigger canopy or less cool canopy then others so be it!

[airborne47 0]

Actually the 170 supposedly had 60 some jumps on it. And i had a rigger check it out and he said it looked like a new canopy. But i only put 7 jumps on it after returning to the sport after a three and a half year absence. Plus i was taught to do PLFs by Uncle Sam. So PLFs have allways been naturale to me. (Had a real hard time at first NOT DOING PLFs) So think in large part it was just a matter of my comfort level.