Maybe a good topic for discussion

[bmcd308 0]

In an effort to provoke conversation, I'm going to relay a little story that happened here in Memphis so everyone can talk about it. It will let people touch on crime, gun control, effectiveness of the police, and all kinds of good stuff. It is probably impossible for me to tell the story without inserting my own value judgments, so I won't try all that hard. Most of you know my views and can filter what you consider bs out of this:

There was a string of burglaries in my neighborhood for several weeks. A big string. Five or six a night for four weeks or so. The guy was an apparent professional, entering occupied homes without the knowledge of the residents and quickly getting out with a few valuables at a time - purses off entrance hall tables, jewelry out of bedrooms, etc. Only a couple of people encountered the burglar, and these were all nonviolent confrontations where the burglar fled as quickly as possible. In no case was the homeowner between the burglar and the exit, so the burglar was able to exit quickly as soon as detected. However, people were fairly shaken up.

As you might imagine, the police response was large. Multiple patrol cars in the neighborhood at all hours of the day and night, undercover officers walking up and down the sidewalks, etc. This started about three and a half weeks into it and caused a tremendous falloff in the number of burglaries.

Across town, in a not so nice area, a homeowner encountered a burglar in his home. The burglar was cornered, the homeowner got scared, and the burglar wound up getting shot and killed. Turns out the burglar that was shot and killed had in his home a large number of items reported missing from my neighborhood. Police concluded it was the same guy.

It turns out that there was a big spike in robberies in the burglar's neighborhood right before the burglar was killed.

I will speculate that the large police presence in my neighborhood led the burglar to take his activities elsewhere - that he modified his behavior based on a perceived increase in the likelihood of getting caught. So the police presence in my neighborhood actually caused crime to shift out of the area with the increased police presence.

The burglaries in both neighborhoods dropped back to normal levels after the burglar was killed. The homeowner who shot ihm was not charged in his death, which was ruled a justifiable homicide. I have no idea what actually happened in that house.

Anyone want to begin with social commentary?

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www.jumpelvis.com

[Gawain 0]

It's obvious. Everyone needs a gun. The police wouldn't need to adjust their patrols, undercover, etc., and at the very first encounter, the burgler would've been shot/caught/killed. (Tongue in cheek )

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[pds 0]

you pays you money and you takes you chances. a mans house is his castle. blahblahblah. you force into my space with ill intent you will be lucky to stay above room temperature. good for mr homeowner.

namaste, motherfucker.

[QuickDraw 0]

I wish we had the same options open to us.

-- Hope you don't die. --

I'm fucking winning

[wmw999 2,149]

I agree; shit happens, it happens more to burglars. Whether I think he "deserves" it, or whether this is the best way to deal with crime, is irrelevant, once it's happened.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Nightingale 0]

ABSOLUTELY a justifiable homicide.

My personal philosophy is that if someone is in my home without my permission, it is a JUSTIFIABLE and REASONABLE assumption that they are there to harm me.

I don't own a gun, but I do have a beautiful set of Hibben throwing knives that live on my bookcase right next to my bed.

[bendywendy 0]

I own a gun and I would shoot someone if I felt the need to protect myself or someone else. I wouldn't shoot someone in the back trying to run off with my television set - not saying that that is what happened here - but if I surprised a burgular and things escalated from there - then yes, I would shoot them.

[Nightingale 0]

you may not have the time to make that distinction. What are you going to do, walk in on a burglar and ASK him whether he's there to hurt you, or if he just wants your stuff? By the time his actions make his intentions clear, it is probably too late.

[billvon 2,435]

>My personal philosophy is that if someone is in my home without my
>permission, it is a JUSTIFIABLE and REASONABLE assumption that
> they are there to harm me.

Geez. I hope you never discover your neighbor in your garage, checking to see why the garage door has been open all night.

[Nightingale 0]

I live alone, in an apartment. My father is the only other person with a key, and he would have the courtesy to call first, and ring the bell when he got there. He would never enter without my permission... because he KNOWS where I keep the throwing knives.

and, in the scenario you listed, I would hope my neighbor would have the courtesy to come ring the doorbell before snooping around in my garage.

[kelel01 1]

The law states that a person has the right defend "their own life or a loved one's", NOT personal property, with deadly force. Who knows what happened in this instance, but if you shoot someone because they are loitering on your farm, or are running out the back door of your house with your DVD player, you have broken the law. That is murder. Not to mention the fact that stealing property does not equate to extinguishing a human life. It's not an even trade. You can have all the opinions you want, but the law isn't going to change anytime soon, and it's set up that way for a reason. This isn't the old west, and you can't kill everyone for every little injustice. OK, enough.

Kelly

[Nightingale 0]

absolutely. You have to judge the situation.

I wouldn't harm someone for standing around in my front yard... I might call the cops if they hang around too long.

No point in chasing after someone who's obviously leaving either.

However... you wake up in the middle of the night... hear a strange noise. Grab your weapon (whether its gun, knife, or convenient baseball bat or whatever) and go to investigate, assuming that its probably nothing. You come face to face with a stranger in your hallway. You are between that stranger and his way out. now what? "Um..hello, Mr. Criminal. May I kindly ask what you're doing in my hallway?" riiiiight.

[billvon 2,435]

>and, in the scenario you listed, I would hope my neighbor would
> have the courtesy to come ring the doorbell before snooping around
> in my garage.

A few months ago I left for the week; told the neighbor. Like an idiot I left the garage door open. I don't have a doorbell so he stood outside and said "Hello! Hello!" a few times, then walked in, found the garage door button, and tried to close it. It took him a few tries to get it to close and to be able to get out before it did. I'm glad I have neighbors like that.

In my experience, 90% of the time it is people like this you find in your house or garage - inquisitive but helpful neighbors, drunk friends who want to "suprise" you, meter readers who want to know why I have a big WARNING - ALTERNATE ENERGY SOURCE placard by my meter, etc. Keep throwing knives if you want, but I'd suggest you find out who it is you are about to kill before you kill them. Seems like common courtesy. Even the most ardent pro-gun cop might not be so understanding if you kill the cable guy "cause I gotta right to protect my house!"

[Nightingale 0]

The cable guy can't enter your house without your permission. Nobody has the right to be inside my home unless I have invited them in. That's the law.

During the daytime, I am never home. I'm either at work, karate, or the dropzone. If someone is in my apartment when I'm home, it means they're in my home at night. Cable guys and repairmen don't work nights, and they don't show up at an apartment unless you call them... logical assumption if someone is in my home at night and were not invited: they're up to no good.

And with knives, you really have to LOOK at the person to see where you're aiming. By the time I throw, I've had to look at my opponent to find an appropriate target. That look will give me a real good idea of who I'm aiming at as well. This is the reason I do NOT own a gun. Guns make it too easy. Aim for the center of the mass, pull trigger. With a knife, you have to be much more selective about your target, because there is a lot less velocity backing up the weapon.

I also make it very clear to my friends and family that I keep weapons in my home.

You may have neighbors who are polite and friendly. My neigbors dont' have any interest in getting to know the other folks in the building. Most people don't even know their neighbor's names, where I live. None of my neighbors would presume to come into my apartment uninvited. The apartment complex across the street has a drug and gang problem. Robberies are fairly common in the downstairs units. We hear about a couple per year. I live upstairs, because most thieves don't want to carry a television set or whatever down a flight of stairs, and windows make for much easier access than doors, and the only way in to my place is through the door, or a window that's twelve feet off the ground. In my neighborhood, 99% of the time, someone who is in a home uninvited after dark is up to no good. We've even had two serial rapists operating in the vicinity.

Basically, what it comes down to is if someone is in my home at night and they were not invited there by me, it is a reasonable assumption that they are there to harm me. If you are in fear for your life, the law allows you to take appropriate action.

I have spoken to several police officers, and several lawyers about situations like this, mainly because I was a martial arts instructor for several years, and I needed legal information to pass along to my students about when it is and is not appropriate to use martial or weapons skills.

[GigaBuist 0]

The thing I find interesting about this post is how it relates to the often heard mantra of "if crime is bad in your area, just move." This seems to show that that isn't always a good idea. Presumably the burglar lived in a high crime area and moved to a low crime area for his activities because people there were not as vigilant.

That's why I dont' like the "just move" idea. It forces the situation onto somebody else. The better idea is to do something to stop crime. Many theories exist on the matter and I applaud any social action that seeks to stop crime at the root of the problem. However, an armed society is a strong deterant in my mind. If everybody is armed there's nowhere for crime to go. This is not the final solution the problem but a reasonable measure to take regardless of crime levels.

[GigaBuist 0]

Quote

\And with knives, you really have to LOOK at the person to see where you're aiming. By the time I throw, I've had to look at my opponent to find an appropriate target. That look will give me a real good idea of who I'm aiming at as well. This is the reason I do NOT own a gun. Guns make it too easy. Aim for the center of the mass, pull trigger. With a knife, you have to be much more selective about your target, because there is a lot less velocity backing up the weapon.

I'm certainly not trying to combative with the parent poster in this matter but I should try and dispell a few myths about gun owners and shooting intruders.

Technically speaking we have far more to think about when it comes to shooting an intruder than you do when throwing a knife. This is highly dependant on where you live but honestly the thought process doesn't really change that much.

I too live in an apartment. Some gun owners (okay, most of them) live in a house. We not only have to select our target but we must evaluate, within split seconds, where that bullet is going to land if we miss the intruder or if it passes through them. Where I live I have very few positions which I could possibly fire on an intruder to save my life and not effect anybody else. I take many measures and repeadly remind myself of various tragectories which are safe in such a situtation. I'm not alone in this matter either -- if you visit pro-gun boards like http://www.thehighroad.org you'll see many discussions about what types of rounds and calibers are suitable for such situations. Very much thought goes into these decisions.

With a throwing knife you most certainly have to select your target but that is largely because you have a limited capacity in which to "fire" upon the individual. If you must concern yourself with your knife traveling through an entire house and into another building then, sir, I would like to shake your hand and become your student.