Cincinnati PD - death after arrest

[andrewstewart 0]

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institutionalized approach within the police dept

Ah, you must be refering to the institutionalized approach of an officer defending himself/herself. Silly us.

Yes that's exactly what I was refering to.

[rehmwa 2]

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Firstly, you don't pay someone $3,000,000 in a settlement unless you messed up.

True, all settlements are justified and no settlement has ever been made for political or PR reasons. It's really nice to be in a society where frivolous lawsuits never happen.

It seems some here want to discuss the actions of about an individual.

But you are continuing to try and generalize this into a race issue. This is a very common attitude that causes more damage to the situation that was intended to address. I've always considered liberals to have good intentions and be very well meaning (and to cause more damage as a result).

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[andrewstewart 0]

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Firstly, you don't pay someone $3,000,000 in a settlement unless you messed up.

True, all settlements are justified and no settlement has ever been made for political or PR reasons. It's really nice to be in a society where frivolous lawsuits never happen.

True, but there were two settlements to two different parties.

[PhillyKev 0]

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I said that I wouldn't be surprised if the courts determine that there is an institutionalized approach within the police dept that that ends up with people being unnecessarily killed.

Question, did you see the video? Follow up, if so, what would you have done to stop the guy?

[rehmwa 2]

Still, it's about the individuals, not the class or generalization of groups.

Else you are doing a terrible injustice to the cops involved by lumping them into a 'group'.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Jib 0]

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That's for the courts to decide, ultimately. But I wouldn't be surprised if the courts statement is that the determine that the city police department has an institutionalized problem with their approach to this kind of incident, given their past history...

You can't find people guilty because of their past. In fact, in most places and a general rule, you can't even bring it up. So, a jury will likely never, ever find out about any past incidents and never be given the opportunity to not surprise you. BTW in Florida, there's a good chance they would have just shot and killed him and been completely justified in doing so. The law's not what one thinks it ought to be.

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[AndyMan 7]

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If you're going to state something, state the FULL something.

Ok, then for now on nothing short of the entire coroners report is acceptable for posting here.

What you quoted said exactly what I did. Any difference between what I said and what is in the quote is entirely your bias. As I said, the coroner ruled the cause of death was the beating. This is evident in the quote below by the use of "homocide", coming from the greek homo - meaning death by other human. Executions are also homocide, btw.

To me, the death in itself isn't particularly notable, clearly the guy was whacked out. What is notable is that that Cincinati PD has a history of this, and that history just got worse.

Clearly, its the context which illustrates the trend which makes this story important. I would think that if I were in the Cincinati PD, and I had the history they did, I would be a little more cautious to make sure it didn't happen again. Strangely, that doesn't seem to be happening.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[AggieDave 6]

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what would you have done to stop the guy?

I also asked that question. He ignored it, refusing to try to put himself in that position makes it easier for him to bash the officers invovled.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[TheAnvil 0]

Yes, they are irrelevant to this case. Why the hell do you think they would be relevant?

This big fella made a choice. He CHOSE to attack a police officer. Nobody made him do that. It was his own CHOICE. He then chose to resist police officers trying to subdue him. They should have shot the bastard for attacking a cop.

How, exactly, are any previous crimes, incidents, or residents of Cincinnatti to blame for this guy's choices? THEY AREN'T.

Some civil rights leaders [sic] are trying to play the race card here to get some attention. What they should be doing is reminding people who look up to them why this guy is dead: he took drugs, ate too much, and chose to attack a police officer. They should encourage their followers to obey police officers, stay off of drugs, and stay in shape. If they truly cared about the people that follow them, these so-called leaders would do that, vice scream 'racism racism racism' when things like this happen. The fact is that they DON'T care about their followers - they care about $$, attention, and political power. There are exceptions - but not many.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[wildblue 4]

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Firstly, you don't pay someone $3,000,000 in a settlement unless you messed up. You seem to think that it's impossible for the Cincinnati police to ever make a mistake.

Ok - so 18 killings in 8 years (which isn't a bad track record at all) and they screwed up two and paid for it. And you expect the courts will rule there's a pattern here of people being unnecessarily killed??

The one case they settled, they deserved to pay for - the cop later admitted he was startled by the suspect and accidentally shot him. The other, they paid because it was questionable - it was ruled the officers were justified in using lethal force, but they violated numerous procedures that got them into the situation in the first place.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[AggieDave 6]

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Any difference between what I said and what is in the quote is entirely your bias

Not quite, it is also your bias. You left out the parts except the fact that it "had" to be ruled a homocide. I posted the parts that stated surround circumstance.

Thus, the two different posts of the same data shows both of our bias. You think I have the bias due to what I believe, I think you have a bias due to what you believe and we both think we're right...that's just how it works.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[rehmwa 2]

Jib - This is even worse, judging an individual by the actions of his past and how they relate make sense anyway.

But judging an individual about an -institution's- past is not just.

Now if any of these cops were specifically involved in the previous cases, that would make sense to look and see if it relates. But then it should only be applied to that person, and not extended to the others. But as you said, even that can be unlawful in some cases (Lawrocket? want to confirm?)

Anyone know anything on those lines? Were any of the cops involved reported to have a history being associated with these types of cases?

Note - I saw the vid. The cops were doing their jobs well in my mind. Extremely well.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Slappie 9]

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Firstly, you don't pay someone $3,000,000 in a settlement unless you messed up. You seem to think that it's impossible for the Cincinnati police to ever make a mistake.

How is this realivent to this case? Also I haven't read in any of these post anyone saying the Cinci PD hasn't made a mistake. I don't think you could find a PD in the US that hasn't had it's share of mistakes, be it killing in error or whatever. Making mistakes is part of being human.

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And I didn't say that those particular cops were involved in a previous shooting (although they might have been). I said that I wouldn't be surprised if the courts determine that there is an institutionalized approach within the police dept that that ends up with people being unnecessarily killed

No you didn't say the officers in this case were involved in shootings which resulted in a death. you have though said it's just another case of the Cinci PD killing somoene in error. As I see this case the officers didn't kill this man. They were not the cause of his death, they may have agravated an already excisting condition the man suffered from. As for killing him, no.. I don't think they killed him.. They protected themselves and the public from a violent person acting out in an out of control manner. He was obvisouly high and not processing information correctly.. The officers were not on the offencive they reacted in a defencive manner. The officers were not the ones to instigate the confrontation. The man did, he stuck out first.

As far as the courts deciding whether or not the Cinci PD has a problem with their officers killing people at random. That is also not a part of this case. Can't be used as an agrument. None of the cases before this one are relevant to this case.

Oh and get off whether the baton hurt or not.. sheeesh we all know getting hit with a blunt object is going to hurt.

Now whether the officers used the batons to cause damage or not, I believe from what I've seen and talking to my HPD friends. They used to batons in a very "non-offencive" manner. As in not wanting to cause major harm or damage to the induvidual. The blows were kept to the lower body and back. Only to cause pain, pain being the detrmental force to make the perp quit with the violent actions.

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them."

[wildblue 4]

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Clearly, its the context which illustrates the trend which makes this story important. I would think that if I were in the Cincinati PD, and I had the history they did, I would be a little more cautious to make sure it didn't happen again. Strangely, that doesn't seem to be happening.

Andy - read my posts. 18 killings in 8 years is not a bad track record. And when put in proper context, the history they have isn't that bad at all - not counting this last one, one of those killings was blatently unjustified and one was questionable to the point that Cinci paid for wrongful death.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[AggieDave 6]

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But judging an individual about an -institution's- past is not just.

But we all know that ALL white men in Mississippi are apart of the KKK and all are racists. I mean, over the past 50 years there have been umptenth deaths and klan meetings...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[PhillyKev 0]

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They should encourage their followers to obey police officers, stay off of drugs, and stay in shape.

Chris Rock should be a civil rights leader. Ever see his, "How to not get your ass kicked by the police" sketch? .

[n2skdvn 0]

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But we all know that ALL white men in Mississippi are apart of the KKK and all are racists.

damn i guess they forgot to tell me..oh well

now where did i leave that sheet.

(disclaimer: I am in no way a raceist or klan member and have no desire to be one)

if my calculations are correct SLINKY + ESCULATOR = EVERLASTING FUN
my site

[TheAnvil 0]

That's pretty funny. Hadn't seen that in a while.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kmcguffee 0]

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I would think that if I were in the Cincinati PD, and I had the history they did, I would be a little more cautious to make sure it didn't happen again.

I would think you would be worried about a 350 man kicking your ass, grabbing your gun, and shooting you until you stopped bleeding.

The cops had to arrest the guy. It's there job and, based on his condition and state of mind, he was a threat to others. They are authorized to use the required force to make that arrest. All of their strikes were in non-lethal locations. They weren't trying to kill him. If I were placed in the same situation I probably would have shot the guy. I don't know for sure though because I wasn't there. He was big enough to cause death or serious injury to me and he was trying to cause death or serious injury. The requirements for the use of force, in my department, are "the officer has probable cause to believe that the person poses an imminent threat of death or serious injury to the officer or others".

I really don't think the officers were concerned with past history in the middle of this fight.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[billvon 2,456]

>How, exactly, are any previous crimes, incidents, or residents of
>Cincinnatti to blame for this guy's choices? THEY AREN'T.

If the Cincinnati Police kill 20 people a year, and 19 are black, then that pattern should be investigated, and this incident would become part of that investigation. Note I said investigated - no one (and specifically these officers) are to blame if it just so happened that 19 of the 20 times deadly force was warranted the victim was black. If that's the case, then no action need be taken, except perhaps changes in training to help cops subdue violent people without killing them as often.

If there _is_ a pattern of officers targeting blacks, then that _is_ a problem, and has to be fixed. It has happened before. Hopefully that's not what's happening here.

[PhillyKev 0]

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If there _is_ a pattern of officers targeting blacks, then that _is_ a problem, and has to be fixed. It has happened before. Hopefully that's not what's happening here.

The guy was targeted because he was passed out in front of a store, the police approached him to find out the problem, and he punched one and then fought with the rest while they tried to arrest him.

This is like reverse profiling. Blacks commit more crimes per capita than whites, therefore it is ok to profile blacks.....bzzzzzzz....wrong.

Police have killed more blacks than whites, therefore it is ok to investigate a clearly justified use of force for racial bias.......bzzzzzzz....wrong.

[Jib 0]

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If the Cincinnati Police kill 20 people a year, and 19 are black, then that pattern should be investigated, and this incident would become part of that investigation.

I disagree. I think each and every police shooting/death should be investigated: either its lawful or its not. I do not think race should be part of the equation until it is determined that the shooting was not justified. I have trouble with the idea that a death was justified and then searching for an ulterior motive based on statistics.

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[billvon 2,456]

>The guy was targeted because he was passed out in front of a store,
> the police approached him to find out the problem, and he punched
> one and then fought with the rest while they tried to arrest him.

That's what it looks like. And if that's all it is, then no problem.

>Police have killed more blacks than whites, therefore it is ok to
> investigate a clearly justified use of force for racial
> bias.......bzzzzzzz....wrong.

White cops have never gone after blacks just because they're black . . . bzzz . . . wrong. I would hope we're past that, but history has shown that it does occasionally rear its ugly head. Using "but . . . but . . . we're a race-blind society!" to avoid seeing that sort of injustice is foolish.

[PhillyKev 0]

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White cops have never gone after blacks just because they're black . . . bzzz . . . wrong. I would hope we're past that, but history has shown that it does occasionally rear its ugly head. Using "but . . . but . . . we're a race-blind society!" to avoid seeing that sort of injustice is foolish.

I agree, but I think you should look at the facts of a case and then if you see evidence that there was racial motivation, investigate that. Don't assume it was racially motivated and then force these people to disprove that. That's unjust.

[Slappie 9]

[QUOTE]Don't assume it was racially motivated and then force these people to disprove that. That's unjust. That is just what's happening and it's kind of sick. I mean the cops are being portrayed now as racist. The officers are getting thrown to the wolves (media) just because they did their jobs..