Bush Refuses to Sign Global Landmine Treaty..

[wmw999 2,146]

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these people are not citizens and they were not caught in the US

They aren't citizens (well, mostly)
They weren't caught in the US (well, mostly)
They aren't being held in the US (don't think so)

That way they fall between the cracks of the Constitution and the Geneva Convention for some people.

The problem is that the Constitution and the Geneva Convention are generally guidelines for correct behavior, rather than excluders of wrong behavior. Which kind of means that looking for cracks defeats their purpose. They do forbid some things, but they're more about declaring rights than forbidding wrongs.

A law-abiding country first defines the laws, and then follows them. We're getting perilously close to a situation where we're defining the law according to what some think "should" happen, rather than letting the law delineate the actions taken by its agents.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 1,644]

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Did Bush steal your girlfriend or something?

No, but when his lips move I know not to trust what he says.

What did you think of his doubletalk on veterans' benefits?

I'm going to vote for him. Even if I don't agree with everything that he says, he won't change his mind in 10 minutes like your man Kerry.

Just in case you forgot this:

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=954754#954754

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[LouDiamond 1]

Having actually found myself in a live minefield before and having worked in a mine rich environment and since this IS a thread about LANDMINES I figured I would discuss some of the facts about LANDMINES and where a majority of them are being made and used.

If you do a little research you will see that Italy is one of the biggest producers and exporters of very sophisticated mines. Most of them cannot be detected via conventional means because they are comprised mostly of plastics and or other non metalic parts. Italy has sold them pretty much to anyone who wanted them and they have ended up all over the world. Afgahanistan has one of the highest concentrations of landmines and subsequently land mine victims with several other countries close behind. Besides Italy, there are a few other countries out there who produce and sell mines that have been bought and used by other countries. Many of those other countries that sell mines are selling what can be coined a conventional mine being that it is detectable by a mine detector due to metal content. Many of these being eastern block in design be it made there or copied. There are about a handful of Major countries that even have the capability of having "smart mines or munitions" out there due to the cost per mine/munition.

Many of the countries who have signed the treaty do not use mines becasue they don't have a reson to employ them, ie: they usually are not involved or get involved in situations where they would be needed or could be employed. The remainder of the players out there which are predominately 2nd and 3rd world countries use landmines like they are going out of style because they are cheap and easy to employ. These countries also could care less about the landmine treaty let alone other treaties in many cases. The thing to keep in mind, which it is apparent based on some peoples comments in regards to the other topics being discussed in this thread is this THE BAD GUYS DON'T RECOGNIZE OR PLAY BY THE RULES" When we are the only ones playing by the rules it makes it kind of hard to put anything into a "rules", "laws", "conventions", "accords" or "treaty" mentality that the bad guys can be held to or neatly catogorized and placed into because it just doesn't work. I think it is hard for many people,especially Americans to fully understand this concept because they have never seen terrorism in action or lived in an environment where terrorism is an everyday reality. I have seen it in action and lived it. I was in the US embassy in Peru when it was blown up by the shining path. I have met and talked to captured or reformed members of terrorist organizations and they all took advantage of the fact that Gov'ts will usually play by the "rules" even if they are captured after having commiting an act of terrorism. They simply are not afraid because they know they will be protected by "rules" or laws or they see dieing for their cause as a honorable thing.


As much as I hate to contribute to the on going hijacking of the thread, I think the words in bold above apply to many of the arguements that have been stated already by "left" or other side or whatever you want to call them.

Take the prisoner issue. Why are we holding them? Apply the above bolded words again. It would be akin to a chess game where by after you take your opponents piece you give it back to them and they put it back on the board on the next move. OK, that aside. So how do we treat them or better yet how do we catogorize them, are they POWs are they detainees, etc? well if you play be the "rules" they don't fit into any of those classical molds of what each is and isn't. There is a crossing over and in some cases no mold into which they "fit" by definition.

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Bill Von wrote:

Either charge them with crimes or say they are POW's - and treat them accordingly.

We could say they are POWs and still detaine them with out trial since we are still technically at war with "them". However, they don't "fit" into the definition of what a POW is so they cannot in all means be considered a POW. But lets play. Even if we did call them POWs they are being treated way better than anyother country on the planet would treat them, regardless of what you call them be it POWor Detainee they are being treated well.

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Kennedy wrote:

They don't qualify for POW status, so what international laws or treaties do cover them?

The only one that I can think of that would even remotely come close to covering them is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights but they are exempted from that I believe because they are members of an armed fighting group. But as far as living conditions and treatment while in detention, they are being treated at or above the guidelines covered in the UDHR.

But lets not loose focus of what this thread is about and that is LANDMINES. If you want to argue WMDs in Iraq or what GWB did or didn't say or do then start another thread with that as the topic. Those issues in this thread are not germain to the topic of landmines.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[tilly 0]

good job everyone thinks that way eh!
(sarcasm intended)