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pajarito 0
Holy crap...I'm with you on that one. Man (or angels) were created with free will. Man, however, is inherently evil or a sinner. Man will always "choose" the way of sin unless the spirit of God intercedes (If we're dead in our sin; what can a dead man do?) If God "chooses" to reveal himself to a person (the elect), that person will ultimately "choose" to accept him and choose the way of righeousness. That's how the "free will" of man fits into the equation. it was necessary for God to make creatures He knew would sin of their own choice, to receive glory for His justice , grace, and mercy (by punishing some and saving those He chooses: Rom. 9:17, 22-23). That's a reason for Satan.
pajarito 0
Gotta go....I shall return. 
why would a deity that is supposed to be pure goodness make a creation that will "always choose the way of sin"?
I'm sorry, but that argument doesn't make sense, because one needs to examine all the good works done by non-Christians. Obviously, not all non-Christians choose to do evil deeds, therefore, your argument is flawed.
I'm sorry, but that argument doesn't make sense, because one needs to examine all the good works done by non-Christians. Obviously, not all non-Christians choose to do evil deeds, therefore, your argument is flawed.
pajarito 0
I've really got to go now. Eating at a friend's house. It's time to eat over here on the East Coast. I'll be back. Here's something to add, though:
First, Rom. 9:14 says there is "no unrighteousness with God." Second, it was necessary for God to make creatures He knew would sin of their own choice, to receive glory for His justice , grace, and mercy (by punishing some and saving those He chooses: Rom. 9:17, 22-23). Third, God is sovereign, and can do whatever He wants (9). Fourth, creatures do not have the right to question the creator (9:19-24). Fifth, God's wisdom and ways exceed our comprehension (11:33-36). We have to allow that we don't understand everything God does, and that there is no unrighteousness in God (9:14).
First, Rom. 9:14 says there is "no unrighteousness with God." Second, it was necessary for God to make creatures He knew would sin of their own choice, to receive glory for His justice , grace, and mercy (by punishing some and saving those He chooses: Rom. 9:17, 22-23). Third, God is sovereign, and can do whatever He wants (9). Fourth, creatures do not have the right to question the creator (9:19-24). Fifth, God's wisdom and ways exceed our comprehension (11:33-36). We have to allow that we don't understand everything God does, and that there is no unrighteousness in God (9:14).
pajarito 0
In reference to: "Obviously, not all non-Christians choose to do evil deeds." Yes, but they deny their creator and are all sinners just like me. Just because they live a good life according to their own sets of standards doesn't make them "good." See ya.
exactly.
the text says they can choose evil. not that they WILL, deity or not. therein lies the difference.
it says "there is no UNrighteousness in God." not that righteousness cannot exist elsewhere. You're turning a negative into a positive.
take the following sentence:
Kerry cannot exist in a no-cat household
This sentence does not mean that cats cannot live outside Kerry's presence, simply that Kerry cannot live independent of the cats. The cats existance is not dependent on Kerry's existance, but Kerry cannot be without her cats.
Although God is always surrounded by righteousness, righteousness is not always dependent on following the Christian God. Righteous deeds are often done by people who have never even heard of the concept of Christianity.
the text says they can choose evil. not that they WILL, deity or not. therein lies the difference.
it says "there is no UNrighteousness in God." not that righteousness cannot exist elsewhere. You're turning a negative into a positive.
take the following sentence:
Kerry cannot exist in a no-cat household
This sentence does not mean that cats cannot live outside Kerry's presence, simply that Kerry cannot live independent of the cats. The cats existance is not dependent on Kerry's existance, but Kerry cannot be without her cats.
Although God is always surrounded by righteousness, righteousness is not always dependent on following the Christian God. Righteous deeds are often done by people who have never even heard of the concept of Christianity.
if someone has never heard of Christianity, that doesn't make them evil either, and it doesn't mean they will always choose the wrong thing.
Zenister 0
i've got to get something to eat...i would however, like to thank everyone for keeping things reasonably civil given the passonate nature of this discussion oo thats a baaaadd pun but...
i would also like to suggest a book to everyone, it makes no claims of truth, but it might help to clarify many things...
Life of Pi by Yann Martel
i would also like to suggest a book to everyone, it makes no claims of truth, but it might help to clarify many things...
Life of Pi by Yann Martel
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
pajarito 0
Great questions. These are some of the ones that I have a hard time getting my head around most of the time. It's pretty mindboggling.
Certainly, people of different faiths and even people without faith in a God sometimes or possibly even most all the time do what would be considered by most to be righteous deeds or live a “good” life. No matter who they are, however, they will, at some point in their lives, break one of the Ten Commandments and, therefore, sin. This separates them from God. There are no inherently “righteous” people. They may try to be and that’s admirable but none exist or will exist that meet or maintain that standard. Jesus Christ is the only person that ever did. He laid his life down as a sacrifice for the short fallings of everyone else. Therefore, those whom God has chosen only gain righteousness through the blood of the sacrificial lamb (Jesus) and, therefore, gain reconciliation with the one true “holy” God. I’m speaking of the most important kind of righteousness that leads to eternal life and salvation. I’m speaking of the kind of righteousness that can only be obtained by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
A person who’s never heard of Christianity or Jesus doesn’t necessarily make him/her a bad person that will choose evil or "do the wrong thing" as you put it. It doesn't necessarily make him/her a child of God either, however. It’s the whole “pigmy in the rain forest thing where he’s never seen a white man or heard of Jesus. Will he/she go to heaven?” My answer is, I don’t know. The Bible says that the voice of God can be heard throughout all creation. Psalm 19:1-4 Therefore, God has been revealed to even that pigmy in the rain forest. God’s plan for that pigmy in the rainforest is not for us to understand, though. Like I said before, God has a plan for everyone. It’s not for us to question our maker.
Certainly, people of different faiths and even people without faith in a God sometimes or possibly even most all the time do what would be considered by most to be righteous deeds or live a “good” life. No matter who they are, however, they will, at some point in their lives, break one of the Ten Commandments and, therefore, sin. This separates them from God. There are no inherently “righteous” people. They may try to be and that’s admirable but none exist or will exist that meet or maintain that standard. Jesus Christ is the only person that ever did. He laid his life down as a sacrifice for the short fallings of everyone else. Therefore, those whom God has chosen only gain righteousness through the blood of the sacrificial lamb (Jesus) and, therefore, gain reconciliation with the one true “holy” God. I’m speaking of the most important kind of righteousness that leads to eternal life and salvation. I’m speaking of the kind of righteousness that can only be obtained by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
A person who’s never heard of Christianity or Jesus doesn’t necessarily make him/her a bad person that will choose evil or "do the wrong thing" as you put it. It doesn't necessarily make him/her a child of God either, however. It’s the whole “pigmy in the rain forest thing where he’s never seen a white man or heard of Jesus. Will he/she go to heaven?” My answer is, I don’t know. The Bible says that the voice of God can be heard throughout all creation. Psalm 19:1-4 Therefore, God has been revealed to even that pigmy in the rain forest. God’s plan for that pigmy in the rainforest is not for us to understand, though. Like I said before, God has a plan for everyone. It’s not for us to question our maker.
tbrown 26
Same thing, presumably without all the gore would happen today. Instead of the crucifiction he would get 25 to life.
That or he'd be hustled off to Guantanamo, declared an "enemy combatant", tried before a military tribunal, and lethally injected. Who knows ? He might be there now....
Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !
Extending upon Nightengale's quesiton about someone who has never heard of Christianity or Jesus. What about Noah, or Moses, or any other person in the Old Testament which is still part of the Bible but before Jesus was born. When God spoke to them (as it says he did in the Old Testament) I guess he just forgot to mention that they wouldn't be able to go to heaven for another 3000 years because his son had not yet been born to die for their sins?
Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com
Ok. Since nobody seems to be responding to your question I will break my self imposed rule of not posting to religious debates.
Go back and read The Bible carefully. Specifically look at the the Old Testament sacrifice methods to God and the ultimate sacrifice made in the New Testament. The correlation of the two and His message in John 14 might answer your question.
For an internet search try: "Perfect Lamb of God"
Hope this helps
aloha.
Go back and read The Bible carefully. Specifically look at the the Old Testament sacrifice methods to God and the ultimate sacrifice made in the New Testament. The correlation of the two and His message in John 14 might answer your question.
For an internet search try: "Perfect Lamb of God"
Hope this helps
aloha.
1. How long can a person survive without oxygen?
A. Three minutes.
B. Ten minutes.
C. Thirty minutes.
D. Three days.
Correct Answer: D (Three days.) “Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights” (Jonah 1:17).\
2. What causes some goats to be striped or spotted?
A. An unusual pigmentation of their coats.
B. Cross-breeding with zebras and other animals with such characteristics.
C. Placing striped or spotted tree limbs in goats’ watering troughs causes their babies to be born striped or spotted.
D. None of the above.
Correct Answer: C (Placing striped or spotted tree limbs in goats’ watering troughs causes their babies to be born striped or spotted.) “And Jacob took him rods of green poplar, and of the hazel and chesnut [sic] tree; and pilled white stakes in them, and made the white appear which was in the rods. And he set the rods which he had pilled before the flocks in the gutters in the watering troughs when the flocks came to drink, that they should conceive when they came to drink. And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted” (Genesis 30:37-39).
3. How many legs do insects have?
A. Six.
B. Five.
C. Four.
D. Three.
Correct Answer: C (Four.) “Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind. But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you” (Leviticus 11:22-23).
4. What type of animal is a bat?
A. A bat is a mammal. It births and nurses its young.
B. A bat is a bird.
C. The Bible is silent on this subject.
D. None of the above.
Correct Answer: B (A bat is a bird.) “And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray, . . . and the bat” (Leviticus 11:13-19).
5. Who named all the animal species?
A. No one. 10 thousand new species of insects are discovered each year, and each lacks any name under any culture.
B. Adam.
C. The naming occurred over many years.
D. None of the above.
Corect Answer: B (Adam.) “And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof” (Genesis 2:19).
6. How big did God make the stars in Heaven?
A. Stars are at least the size of planets.
B. Stars are typically the size of two large planets.
C. Stars dwarf the size of planets.
D. Stars are tiny little objects of light, so small that every star in the universe could easily fall onto the ground of Earth.
Correct Answer: D (Stars are tiny little objects of light, so small that every star in the universe could easily fall onto the ground of Earth.) “And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind” (Revelation 6:13). “And [the red dragon’s] tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth” (Revelation 12:4).
7. Into what shape did God make the Earth?
A. Round.
B. Flat, with four corners.
C. Oval; basically egg-shaped.
D. None of the above.
Correct Answer: B (Flat, with four corners.) “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth” (Revelation 7:1). “And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth” (Isaiah 11:12). “And the devil taking [Jesus] up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time” (Luke 4:5; see also Matthew 4:8). “The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth” (Daniel 4:11).
8. How long did it take Noah to place at least two of each of the more than 50 million animals species on his boat?
A. Trick question. It would be impossible to place over 100 million animals on a single boat, even with the technology of today, especially since the various species are indigenous to habitats that uniquely exist throughout the seven continents.
B. Approximately 600 years, the amount of time Noah lived before the Great Flood.
C. A single day, meaning an average of 1,157 animals boarded the boat every second.
D. None of the above.
Correct Answer: C (A single day, meaning an average of 1,157 animals boarded the boat every second [100,000,000/24hours x 60minutes x 60seconds.) “In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, and the sons of Noah, and Noah’s wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort” (Genesis 7:13-14).
9. How big did God make the sun?
A. Like the other stars, the sun is the size of countless planets combined.
B. The sun is roughly equal in size to the Earth.
C. The sun is about twice the size of the Earth.
D. Our eyes don’t deceive us. The sun is no bigger than it appears when we look up. In fact, it is so small that a single cloud could prevent it from bringing any light to the earth.
Correct Answer: D (Our eyes don’t deceive us. The sun is no bigger than it appears when we look up. In fact, it is so small that a single cloud could prevent it from bringing any light to the earth.) “And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light” (Ezekiel 32:7).
10. How high above the ground is Heaven?
A. Heaven exists independently of our perceptions of height and distance. It is a place we cannot imagine.
B. Heaven is, at most, a few hundred feet above the ground, because people building towers before the discovery of electricity almost reached it.
C. Heaven is billions of miles beyond the Earth, and is beyond even the stars above.
D. None of the above.
Answer: B (Heaven is, at most, a few hundred feet above the ground, because people building towers before the discovery of electricity almost reached it.) “And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded [sic]. And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do” (Genesis 11:4-6).
A. Three minutes.
B. Ten minutes.
C. Thirty minutes.
D. Three days.
Correct Answer: D (Three days.) “Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights” (Jonah 1:17).\
2. What causes some goats to be striped or spotted?
A. An unusual pigmentation of their coats.
B. Cross-breeding with zebras and other animals with such characteristics.
C. Placing striped or spotted tree limbs in goats’ watering troughs causes their babies to be born striped or spotted.
D. None of the above.
Correct Answer: C (Placing striped or spotted tree limbs in goats’ watering troughs causes their babies to be born striped or spotted.) “And Jacob took him rods of green poplar, and of the hazel and chesnut [sic] tree; and pilled white stakes in them, and made the white appear which was in the rods. And he set the rods which he had pilled before the flocks in the gutters in the watering troughs when the flocks came to drink, that they should conceive when they came to drink. And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted” (Genesis 30:37-39).
3. How many legs do insects have?
A. Six.
B. Five.
C. Four.
D. Three.
Correct Answer: C (Four.) “Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind. But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you” (Leviticus 11:22-23).
4. What type of animal is a bat?
A. A bat is a mammal. It births and nurses its young.
B. A bat is a bird.
C. The Bible is silent on this subject.
D. None of the above.
Correct Answer: B (A bat is a bird.) “And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray, . . . and the bat” (Leviticus 11:13-19).
5. Who named all the animal species?
A. No one. 10 thousand new species of insects are discovered each year, and each lacks any name under any culture.
B. Adam.
C. The naming occurred over many years.
D. None of the above.
Corect Answer: B (Adam.) “And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof” (Genesis 2:19).
6. How big did God make the stars in Heaven?
A. Stars are at least the size of planets.
B. Stars are typically the size of two large planets.
C. Stars dwarf the size of planets.
D. Stars are tiny little objects of light, so small that every star in the universe could easily fall onto the ground of Earth.
Correct Answer: D (Stars are tiny little objects of light, so small that every star in the universe could easily fall onto the ground of Earth.) “And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind” (Revelation 6:13). “And [the red dragon’s] tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth” (Revelation 12:4).
7. Into what shape did God make the Earth?
A. Round.
B. Flat, with four corners.
C. Oval; basically egg-shaped.
D. None of the above.
Correct Answer: B (Flat, with four corners.) “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth” (Revelation 7:1). “And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth” (Isaiah 11:12). “And the devil taking [Jesus] up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time” (Luke 4:5; see also Matthew 4:8). “The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth” (Daniel 4:11).
8. How long did it take Noah to place at least two of each of the more than 50 million animals species on his boat?
A. Trick question. It would be impossible to place over 100 million animals on a single boat, even with the technology of today, especially since the various species are indigenous to habitats that uniquely exist throughout the seven continents.
B. Approximately 600 years, the amount of time Noah lived before the Great Flood.
C. A single day, meaning an average of 1,157 animals boarded the boat every second.
D. None of the above.
Correct Answer: C (A single day, meaning an average of 1,157 animals boarded the boat every second [100,000,000/24hours x 60minutes x 60seconds.) “In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, and the sons of Noah, and Noah’s wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort” (Genesis 7:13-14).
9. How big did God make the sun?
A. Like the other stars, the sun is the size of countless planets combined.
B. The sun is roughly equal in size to the Earth.
C. The sun is about twice the size of the Earth.
D. Our eyes don’t deceive us. The sun is no bigger than it appears when we look up. In fact, it is so small that a single cloud could prevent it from bringing any light to the earth.
Correct Answer: D (Our eyes don’t deceive us. The sun is no bigger than it appears when we look up. In fact, it is so small that a single cloud could prevent it from bringing any light to the earth.) “And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light” (Ezekiel 32:7).
10. How high above the ground is Heaven?
A. Heaven exists independently of our perceptions of height and distance. It is a place we cannot imagine.
B. Heaven is, at most, a few hundred feet above the ground, because people building towers before the discovery of electricity almost reached it.
C. Heaven is billions of miles beyond the Earth, and is beyond even the stars above.
D. None of the above.
Answer: B (Heaven is, at most, a few hundred feet above the ground, because people building towers before the discovery of electricity almost reached it.) “And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded [sic]. And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do” (Genesis 11:4-6).
billvon 2,405
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
> God’s plan for that pigmy in the rainforest is not for us to understand, though.
I agree; not all paths to enlightenment are through the Bible, or the Koran, or any other book of morality.
>Like I said before, God has a plan for everyone. It’s not for us to question our maker.
I also agree 100% there. One of the things I dislike about the some established churches is how they often think that _they_ have a plan for everyone, and anyone who does not follow their plan is, well, just plain wrong.
I agree; not all paths to enlightenment are through the Bible, or the Koran, or any other book of morality.
>Like I said before, God has a plan for everyone. It’s not for us to question our maker.
I also agree 100% there. One of the things I dislike about the some established churches is how they often think that _they_ have a plan for everyone, and anyone who does not follow their plan is, well, just plain wrong.
Zenister 0
QuoteThe Bible says that the voice of God can be heard throughout all creation. Psalm 19:1-4 Therefore, God has been revealed to even that pigmy in the rain forest. God’s plan for that pigmy in the rainforest is not for us to understand, though. Like I said before, God has a plan for everyone. It’s not for us to question our maker.
You just quoted one of the few places where the word of MAN hasnt corrupted the word of God...now if you can just get past the "this way and no other" you'll start to see that there are far more paths to God than the mythos of a single culture. No matter what the MEN who recorded their experience of divinity thru that literary means might claim. Don’t believe me? Why don’t you try asking God yourself instead of asking Man. She isn’t hiding, his voice is on the wind, written in the sand and felt on the waves. You just have to still your mind and listen.
the rest of your post illustrates exactly why i (and any other non-christian faithfully following their path) am not a Sinner.
i have never been separated from God, I never will be, God would not take that joy from me ever. No matter what christian dogma claims. I need no blood sacrifice to be 'righteous', i always have been. I was born that way (and so were you), you may need the guilt and redemption rituals to feel 'cleansed' of your failings, but that is a HUMAN need/custom, not something God requires, All God asks of you is faith in her and in yourself. I may stray from my particular path from time to time, this however does not separate me from God, and it never will. He knows my failings, he doesn’t hold them against me. She does expect me to overcome them.
I am and have always been a child of God.
of course since you have trouble with the words of man in his attempt to define God by a single cultural idea, you'll likely have more trouble accepting ie. "getting your head around", the idea that there is more to God and your relationship to him than the christian mythos claims..
break your vessel.
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.
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