Liberals vs. Conservatives

[ChristSkyd 0]

Liberal doesn't necessarily mean Democrat and Conservative doesn't necessarily mean Republican. Liberals will seek bigger government and more taxes. Conservatives will focus on bigger business. Where does your paycheck come from, welfare or work?

"Where do we go from here, chaos or community?" Jefferson Starship, c.1972.

[sducoach 0]

Jefferson "Airplane"?

I know you are as old as I am but were they "starship" in 72?

From my conservative position. Ditto's!!!!!!

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[Nightingale 0]

you're speaking in the economic sense. In the economic sense, I am conservative to moderate.

However, in the social sense, I am very much a liberal. Basically, I want to let other people make their own choices, without trying to legislate who they marry, what they do in their bedroom, where and how they worship, and which religious/moral code they choose to follow.

I'm an economic conservative because I feel that social programs and arts funding should be privatized. By all means, feed the homeless, help people who are out of work, and help abused spouses. But don't do it on my dime, with my tax dollars. Taxes are to fund the running of the government and the support of the military. Helping others should be the responsibility of each individual rather than mandated through taxes and programs. I donate to charities of my choice regularly, and I wish my government would trust me to make the right choices with regards to helping others.

I'm a social liberal because I want people to be free to make their own choices and follow their own path. For those of you who believe there is one right way and the rest are wrong ways, consider that many times people need to stumble about on the wrong path for a while before they find the right one. They need to be given the freedom to do so (within reason) because it is hard to become enlightened when one is staring at the inside of a jail cell or feeling forced to follow a path that he or she disagrees with. That only breeds resentment and hurts your cause more.

Personally, I believe that if an action doesn't harm or have the potential to harm another person, there is probably no need for a law about it.

For example, I find liquor laws rather reasonable (except in Utah! LOL). You must be of an appropriate age to make responsible decisions, and may not drink in situations where you put others at risk (ie. driving). Sure, there's a few other restrictions, but for the most part, adults are free to decide for themselves, and the substance is available without too much difficulty.

Now, look at marajuana laws. I don't know how many of you have ever been around high people, but personally, I'd rather be in a room with a bunch of people on pot than a room with a bunch of drunks. There's no reason laws about marajuana can't be the same as laws about alcohol.

Let adults make their own responsible choices.

[Paige 0]

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However, in the social sense, I am very much a liberal. Basically, I want to let other people make their own choices, without trying to legislate who they marry, what they do in their bedroom, where and how they worship, and which religious/moral code they choose to follow.

Wanting less government tends to lead to conservative points of view. Not wanting people in your business in the bedroom, etc. seems to allude to less govt. Something you won't get from liberals. The ones with the power of the vote, think the govenment is good some how and can actually make a profit and invest our hard earned money better than we can.

I ask you...when has the government ever turned a profit while instituting more govt? Or ever turned a profit to begin with?

Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

[rehmwa 2]

I was going to say that when I read Nightingale's post. You beat me to it. She sounds fiscally conservative and socially conservative. (i.e., she's mixing up the term conservative and confusing it with the far right without noting the far right is socially liberal)

Now Democrats and Republicans are both socially liberal - that means they want their programs and want to use tax money to pay for it. So social position still relates to the economics sense of the definition.

I'm fiscally conservative and socially think people should mind their own business as far as legislating social issues and programs - I think that's a consistent position.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Paige 0]

Can't disagree with anything you said. I know the terms are easy to get mixed up but maybe she just got confused. She's a smart one so maybe we are just reading what she wrote wrong.

Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

[turtlespeed 212]

I think that there is just a bad "taste" that comes along with telling your friends you are a conservative. Being conservative does not mean being heartless and close minded. That is the Ultra Right Wing.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Luv2Fall 0]

Some do not have the capacity to know the difference.

[rehmwa 2]

I think people who disagree with the far right (key word 'far') confuse that with "Republican" without noting that similar social engineering (replace religious programs with political correctness or whatever) of the left is the exact same thing - social liberalism.

N's (from what I can tell sounds super cool and smart) examples show the caution towards the more right wing extreme concepts. So that's why I think the faulty association occurred. There's social liberalism all across the board. I don't see any politician advocating social conservatism - it doesn't appeal to the typical emotional voter (everyone is trying to fix something).

Don't worry, if N sees this, she'll come back and set me straight. I'm just throwing out thoughts here - can't read minds yet....

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Turtle can always say what I'm trying to but in about one tenth the words.

The master gives a lesson again.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[turtlespeed 212]

Damn That is a sig line if I ever saw one.

Thanks Rehmwa

I just am under the opinion that it seems to be a social faux pas to be a young conservative.

Broken down:
1) We would like less government to be able to keep our freedoms .
2) We would like to stop being FORCED to pay for other poeople to sit on thier ass collecting money from us. I guarantee that if the programs that enabled people to do that were halted - people would have to go get jobs. It would just happen.
3) If it's mine - it's mine - not yours.
4) if there is more money in the corporation then there are more jobs to be had. It's pretty simple math.
5) We want to keep our guns.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Nightingale 0]

then why the heck are all the people out there who are against gay marriage calling themselves "conservatives" ??????? If they want less government, it seems like they would want less restrictions over such things as marriage, rather than more.

[kallend 1,635]

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Liberal doesn't necessarily mean Democrat and Conservative doesn't necessarily mean Republican. Liberals will seek bigger government and more taxes. Conservatives will focus on bigger business. Where does your paycheck come from, welfare or work?

"Where do we go from here, chaos or community?" Jefferson Starship, c.1972.

Don't spend what you don't have.

Don't expect others to keep you (individuals AND businesses)

Mind your own business and I'll mind mine (which means it's none of the government's business what a consenting adult chooses to do with his or her body, or what substances they put in it).

Don't listen in on my phone calls or internet usage unless you have a court order for probable cause.

Don't try to tell me what I may or may not read or look at.

Don't force your religion down my (or my childrens') throat.

Don't say one thing and then do the opposite.

Don't interfere with supply and demand, it doesn't solve problems, it only defers them.

Don't tell me what kind of car to drive. Since oil supply and pollution are problems (and they truly are) let the market deal with it by properly allocating costs of dealing with those problems to the price of fuel.

Stop social engineering in schools. K - 12 is not enough time for a good education anyway, without adding all that crap.

A well educated workforce is necessary to the nation's "general welfare". Education should be properly funded nation wide and not left to the vagaries of local funding. We can't afford to lose the next potential Einstein because she happens to be living in a Detroit ghetto.

Taxes are the dues you pay to belong to a developed nation. Don't whine about them.

Eliminate traffic lights. I don't need a government robot to tell me how to deal with an intersection.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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then why the heck are all the people out there who are against gay marriage calling themselves "conservatives"

They don't understand the term either. Both those for and against gay marriage are "socially liberal" (i.e., they are trying to use government to legislate a social issue).

Are those guys any different from Affirmative Action advocates, or anti-abortion types, or enviro types, or anti-business types, etc. etc.

Edit: I like Kallend's list except two - funding edu doesn't fit, the last does but sounds like a gripe and more detailed than the rest. I really like the sig line 45 degree rule is Wrong

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,635]

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I really like the sig line 45 degree rule is Wrong

Public service announcement!

Reading the S&T forum led me to believe that this message needs to be repeated often, in a more widely read forum.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

I finally 'got it' using YOUR simulator posted on Tim and Ted'd website. Thanks for that.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Reading the S&T forum led me to believe that this message needs to be repeated often, in a more widely read forum."

And reading all those oh so interesting political threads in talkback leads me to believe the following message needs to be repeated more often.



BOOBIES!

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[kallend 1,635]

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Are you aware that no data exist to show that traffic lights reduce accidents? Traffic lights do increase congestion (and attendant oil consumption and pollution).

Have you never sat waiting at a red light while no traffic was going the other way?

I spend about 15 - 20 minutes a day waiting at red lights.

In some places the lights are deliberately set to increase congestion, particularly around shopping malls.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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[rehmwa 2]

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lights, etc.

I agree with you, likely 90% of lights are pointless exercises in futility. Don't even get me started on highway on ramp lights

I meant your list was rather broad and conceptual (and I was in shock at the common views here), and then this was tacked in there as a specific.

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I spend about 15 - 20 minutes a day waiting at red lights.

now I understand

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,635]

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"Reading the S&T forum led me to believe that this message needs to be repeated often, in a more widely read forum."

And reading all those oh so interesting political threads in talkback leads me to believe the following message needs to be repeated more often.



BOOBIES!

You're all talk! Send pictures.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jakee 1,257]

How do you think education should be funded?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

I dunno, bartering? (I said it didn't fit the largely Libertarian list, not that I disagreed or agreed with it)

(actually, why can't the private sector handle it, or, give us vouchers for the choice to go private, also if you are childless, why should you have to pay for someone else's choice?)

Instead of asking how it should be funded, maybe ask why should it be 'publicly' funded? I chose to have kids, I'm prepared to pay for them.

Edit: This one's not a huge issue for me, so I'm not too passionate about it. But, then again, I've benefitted from Pell Grants, I have a kid, etc. So there's the bias. But if you want to be pure in discussing Libertarianism, public funding of education is an exception that would need to be specifically justified with data and not just subjective arguments.....

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jakee 1,257]

Yeah private education should be a choice if thats what you want.
For most people though it isn't a choice. To me it seems like a straight choice, you pay taxes for publicly funded education now or you pay later when you are landed with a much higher slice of the tax burden because half the country is so poorly educated they can't earn enough to pay their taxes. Then you end up paying a much higher proportion of the bill for military and general government spending and also pay a higher welfare bill for all those with no education.

I just don't see why the next generation should succeed or fail based on what schooling their folks can afford to give them.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[nathaniel 0]

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Eliminate traffic lights. I don't need a government robot to tell me how to deal with an intersection.

hahahaha

The city of London experienced life without traffic signals not too long ago when their *one* central computer coordinating the lights went out. The result was delicious.

nathaniel

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[rehmwa 2]

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I just don't see why the next generation should succeed or fail based on what schooling their folks can afford to give them.

Not really on topic, but digression is fun -

It's natural selection - kids succeed or fail based completely on what the parents give them - genetics, moral upbringing, emotional stability or not, work ethics, good examples, a healthy and learning environment, protection, clothes, food, and even money if you got it, but success is likely more based on what you do at home than by government sponsored education. The private sector will respond to poor education. Likely faster than public education...

also - if we are responsible about having kids, then we consider if-we-can-afford to give them a good education before we -choose- to have them. Since we have birth control, then having kids is really now a choice isn't it?

I know, it's seems pretty harsh, but why should you put thought and savings and effort into giving your child an advantage, and then have it eliminated by using your own income for someone else's kid when that someone didn't do jack - that's pretty harsh also.

Your point assumes that we have to depend on the taxation of the next generation to support us and also that welfare should be a permanent fixture of government programs...... That's very telling in itself.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants