The wisdom of Tandem skydiving

[Kbone 0]

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Let's not forget how Bill and Tedd are clueless about what they did and had no idea as to the impact of tandems.

Has anyone asked them why they did it?

[lawrocket 3]

And they didn't even know how to slow the damn things down other than using a "band-aid" drogue***

Actually, the parachute exists only as a band-aid to fix the problems of sudden deceleration syndrome. Maybe the need for a parachute should have been the first clue that this type of activity was not the greatest idea.

to lisa: those concerns about tandems are well-founded. I did my first jump as a tandem, just to experience that thrill with my cancer-afflicted g/f. You're right - I chose the tandem because I wanted to know what it was like, didn't want to drop the cash or time on AFF, and I liked the thought of having a pro there for me. In, up, down, out.

Of course, there are plenty of us out there who got that taste and wanted more. There are plenty of us out there like me - those for whom the tandem was the inducement to take on jumping on our own. And I'm glad I did the tandem first since it soothed some nerves for my AFF1. I'm glad I had that opportunity that many of the sport's pioneers did not have. I think tandem, like tunnels, can be a great training aid.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[davelepka 4]

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In this crusty old curmudgeon's mind, skydivers take care of themselves.

I agree with that, but I also would hesitate to call a one-time tandem passenger a skydiver.

The fact remains that tandem has opened up a HUGE portion of the public to make a skydive. Skydiving is not for everyone, but doing a tandem is suitable for more people than a static line jump. Why not take their wuffo dollars, and use them to build nice DZ's with big fast airplanes? Why shouldn't we benefit from being smarter than they are? If you can't handle making a jump on your own, we can hold your hand the whole way down, and keep you safe. Would you like to use MC or Visa?

I'm not even sure what this thread is about. Maybe the original poster had a bad experience with a DZ. I agree that it sucks for a DZO to bump people for tandems. I also agree that if that DZO makes an effort to accomadate fun jumpers (covered packing, free pizza, whatever) than it's not unreasonabel for him to ask a fun jumper to bump once in awhile.

Talk about love for the sport, how about love for the DZO? If he needs a slot to get a tandem group all together on one load, than the fun jumper should pitch in, and give up thier slot. Again, the DZO needs to make every effort to avoid this, but shit happens, and we can pitch in.

What about all the higher level student jumps? Sure level one is expensive. You may never see that guiy again, and if you can get an extra $20 or $40 while he's there, take it. But it seems that the higher level jumps are priced reasonably when you factor in the slots, rental rig, and instructor payment, the margins aren't very high. For a student who makes it to those levels, he's getting some of his level 1 dollars back.

For a guy so concerned about the community, the original poster is very short sighted. Suck it up, and help to get the tandems out when it's busy. Take as much money from the wuffos as possible, and put it into skydiving. Thats love for the sport. Feed it and let it grow. Would the sport have progressed to it's current level without tandem dollars? Would the equipment be as safe? Would there be as many turbines? Would anyone here have as many jumps as they do?

If that guy wants to do military surplus SL jumps out of a 182, than his DZ plan might work. If he wants to wake up a see what millenuim it is, his plan will quickly fail.

[flyangel2 2]

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Let's not forget how Bill and Tedd are clueless about what they did and had no idea as to the impact of tandems.

Has anyone asked them why they did it?

Why don't you?

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[NightJumper 0]

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Has anyone asked them why they did it?

No, not one person in over 20 years has ever asked either of them why, nor has it been brought up in any of the numerous articles, lectures or awards for their contribution to tandems.

[skybytch 259]

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I think tandem, like tunnels, can be a great training aid.

I agree. I can't think of a better way to teach basic canopy control than to have an experienced canopy pilot talking you through it as it happens.

My beef is that it's generally not marketed as skydiving "training" - it's marketed as Disneyland.

[Kbone 0]

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No, not one person in over 20 years has ever asked either of them why, nor has it been brought up in any of the numerous articles, lectures or awards for their contribution to tandems.

I don't think anyone has confronted them about it.

It's easy to give someone an award and a pat on the back but I doubt anyone has really asked them any tough questions in a long time.

[lawrocket 3]

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My beef is that it's generally not marketed as skydiving "training" - it's marketed as Disneyland.

Unfortuantely, that's the best way to hit the target audience. Most people don't show up for a tandem with anything other than a "check off on my things to do before I die" list. A percentage of those people will become the recruits.

Tandems are the dating scene of skydiving - be careful, tandem passenger, you just may end up getting married...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[skybytch 259]

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I agree with that, but I also would hesitate to call a one-time tandem passenger a skydiver.

Oh, same here. I didn't call myself a skydiver until I pulled my own ripcord - which was on my 6th jump (did 5 S/L's first).

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Why not take their wuffo dollars, and use them to build nice DZ's with big fast airplanes? Why shouldn't we benefit from being smarter than they are? If you can't handle making a jump on your own, we can hold your hand the whole way down, and keep you safe. Would you like to use MC or Visa?

Why not? Because some of them continue jumping and never lose that attitude that someone is going to take care of them.

[kbordson 8]

Why not? Because some of them continue jumping and never lose that attitude that someone is going to take care of them.

[davelepka 4]

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Your criticism hasn't seemed to be too constructive. Your points seem to be:

1) Tandems are bad because they alienate the fun jumpers;
2) Tandems are money-making tools of "the man.";
3) DZO's should show appreciation for the fun jumpers;
4) Fun jumpers have earned and deserve cheaper jump tickets;
5) Any DZO who worries about money is a sell-out;
6) If a DZ uses tandems to defray the cost of fun jump tickets, that's bad. The DZ should simply forego tandems and lower the cost of jump tickets.

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Wow! you are better at this than I am. You just nailed all my concerns in one paragraph.

1. How so? DO the tandem students at your home DZ tease you and hurt your feelings? If the DZ has a lift capacity problem, and fun jumpers are always getting bumped, you could A) stop doing tandems, and raise the cost of slot on the small aircraft, or B) aggresivly market for more tandems, and buy a larger AC. Which do you think fun jumpers would prefer?

2. What do you have against money making? Who is 'the man' in this case? The DZO? I'd rather have him have the money than some wuffo, even if he pockets all of it. The reality is that a good bit of it goes to improve the DZ for me.

3.Yes they should. If they don't the fun jumpers should leave the DZ and never come back. So should the staff. They should put him out of business, and jump somewhere else. No joke.

4. By investing in your own training and equipment, you haven't earned anything from the DZ. Skydiving costs money. You want free, stay home and watch broadcast TV. Of course, DZ imporvements for fun jumpers, weekday specials, discount weekends, etc are all forms of customer appreciation.

5.A DZO is operating a for-profit business. Many of them earn little in the way of profit, with AC equity representing thier 'retirement plan'. The ones who do make big money are also the ones who spend the most on facilities, and give the most back to the sport. I don't know of anyone who is willing to open a DZ and not provide for their family and their future.

6. I addressed this in the answer to #1. But again, I can't see how funneling more money into skydiving is bad. Lets say a DZO makes $10k off of tandems after all is said and done. Even if he only puts $100 back into the sport for free pizza one night, hey, free pizza, and a skydiver managed to get $9900 from wuffos. Good for him.


My question to you is what brought this thread to life? What personally is your problem with this? Do you just dislike large rigs?

[f1shlips 2]

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Can you prove that?

From the wayback machine at archive.org :

On Dec 22, 2003:
http://web.archive.org/web/20031222091734/http://www.skydiveaz.com/skydiving_school.htm

On Feb 11, 2004:
http://web.archive.org/web/20040211092500/http://skydiveaz.com/skydiving_school.htm

Current:
http://www.skydiveaz.com/skydiving_school.htm

--
drop zone (drop'zone) n. An incestuous sesspool of broken people. -- Attributed to a whuffo girlfriend.

[davelepka 4]

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Why not take their wuffo dollars, and use them to build nice DZ's with big fast airplanes? Why shouldn't we benefit from being smarter than they are? If you can't handle making a jump on your own, we can hold your hand the whole way down, and keep you safe. Would you like to use MC or Visa?

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Why not? Because some of them continue jumping and never lose that attitude that someone is going to take care of them.

Thats a probelm with the training they recieved after their tandems. Every jumper eventually must prove the same abilities to earn a license, regardless of thier first jump. If they are not prepared at that time, their entire training progression was flawed, not just the first jump.

The holes in the training progression are another lengthy thread in itself.

[davelepka 4]

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Let's not forget how Bill and Tedd are clueless about what they did and had no idea as to the impact of tandems.

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Has anyone asked them why they did it?

Did what?

Created a revenue stream that has funneled millions of dollars into skydiving?

Created a way to draw countless new jumpers into skydiving, many of whom continue on to be regular fun jumpers?

Created a way to promote skydiving via celebrity-types making jumps? Ask the GK's the value of thier tandems they make in regards to promotion.


There may be drawbacks to the tandem system (I think), but given it's widepsread acceptance, along with the 20+ year history, I'm not sure why you see it as such a plague to skydiving. Yes, skydiving is different because of tandems, but I only see improvements in the sport over 20 years ago.

[NightJumper 0]

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I don't think anyone has confronted them about it.

And again your "I don't think" is wrong.

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It's easy to give someone an award and a pat on the back but I doubt anyone has really asked them any tough questions in a long time.

Your "doubt" is as wrong as your "I don't think".

[flyangel2 2]

Thanks, but I wanted my friend to have to find some answers

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[NightJumper 0]

And let's not forget all of the military and tactical benefits of tandems! Oh, that's right, they are bad too. Another case of Bill & Ted’s excellent adventure gone wrong.

[Kbone 0]

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Thanks, but I wanted my friend to have to find some answers

Thanks F1shlips!

See! I told you it used to be $400 for AFF level 1!

[flyangel2 2]

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Thanks, but I wanted my friend to have to find some answers

Thanks F1shlips!

See! I told you it used to be $400 for AFF level 1!

Doesn't matter what the cost was, I wanted you to have to prove it to me.

Just as I've asked you to prove to me how you get the numbers for running a DZ. I'm still waiting for that information.

If I just took you at face value and believed what you were saying here, that DZOs put all kinds of money in their pockets, then I would be a sheep.

Prove to me where you get these numbers. Break it down for someone that has no idea what you are talking about.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[happythoughts 0]

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Why would wou want someone who is vocal about not liking tandems out there doing them?

It's not tandems that he "says" he dislikes, it is the cost. Since he put in his dz.com bio that he is a tandem master, I wanted him to step up to the plate and reduce the cost. I have yet to meet an actual TM with a rating who thinks that they cost too much, so I have some skepticism.

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In the days B.T. (before tandem), you had to really want to make a skydive to do one

We had the same discussion in martial arts. The black/brown belts who did ring-time didn't respect a lot of the people who only came to class for stretching and cardio. "If they don't spar, they shouldn't be in a martial arts class."

There are a lot of people are Orlando wind tunnel regulars who never want to jump. That is the level of participation in the sport that they choose. There are people who only want to do one tandem.

Also, it was the 40 white/yellow belts that kept the gym open for the 2 brown belts. Tandems employ a lot of video people and sell a lot of t-shirts in stores.

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In this crusty old curmudgeon's mind

I am pretty crusty on a lot of stuff too, because I agree with you a lot.

This thread hasn't been about skydiving. It has been about the cost of a tandem and what one person thinks is unfair.

[op5e 0]

It wasnt even originally about price of a tandem it was about tandems and their impact on his fun jumping.

Can we not feed the troll.

[happythoughts 0]

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Thanks, but I wanted my friend to have to find some answers

Thanks F1shlips!

See! I told you it used to be $400 for AFF level 1!

Here is a great way to reduce the costs that you are so worried about. According to your profile, you are an AFF jumpmaster.

Since YOU have your rating, don't worry about making money or defraying the cost of your rig, pack jobs, or anything else. Do the first jump course and work for 6 hours for free.

Costs:

Tickets for 2 jumpmasters and 1 student - $54
Jumpmaster1 rig - $10 -
Jumpmaster1 repack - $5

Jumpmaster2 rig - free
Jumpmaster2 repack - free

dz profit - $10

Jumpmaster2 does 6 hour ground school - free

You could do an AFF for $79. I think you would be pleased.

Since you are a tandem master, you own your own $10,000 rig right? Do those for free. What a nice guy. I look forward to hearing about it.

[Kbone 0]

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Here is a great way to reduce the costs that you are so worried about

My original message was not complaining about costs!! Please re-read the original post.

It was about the impact of Tandems, and the pros/cons of their presence in our sport.

[AggieDave 6]

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- it's marketed as Disneyland.

Are you calling Bill Booth one of the 7 dwarfs?

I know the guy's short and has a beard, but jesus...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[happythoughts 0]

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It was about the impact of Tandems, and the pros/cons of their presence in our sport.

Since your bio lists you as a tandem master, do you consider yourself the source of this problem.

It could be just you.

Where do you do tandems at?
Or better yet, where did you do "the" tandem at?