Another.. question.. (Container)

[Tuna-Salad 0]

Would I be ripping myself off for buying this?
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/detail_page.cgi?ID=75426;d=1

Is there anything wrong with an old, but slightly used container? Do they just become non jumpable after a certain time or what?
I'm sure I look like a dumbass with these questions, but gotta learn somehow..

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[likestojump 3]

Other than Racers not having too good of a resale value, and some riggers not liking to pack them... they do the job fine. I bet this one is not going to be too freefly friendly. And it will also have velcro riser covers, and most likely a bridle velcroed to the outside of the bottom flap... looks like it has a BOC

[Tuna-Salad 0]

Would work since I don't freefly..
Just looking for a first rig.. I'm really tired of paying for rentals...
Sort of embarassing having 150+ jumps and having to rent student gear...

So I wouldn't be ripping myself off then?

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Tune,

The listed serial # looks odd ( SST001 ) which is probably the model number.

I 'think' Jump Shack uses the date mfd. as the serial #.

You might ask him the actual serial #,

JerryBaumchen

[erdnarob 1]

There is nothing wrong with a old container until a certain extent because the container mainly hold the volume of the parachutes. The main concern should be the harness integrity since it takes the shock at opening. If straps are not frayed and the stitches are intact the rig should be good. Have it checked by a rigger anyway.
I know a guy in Canada who has a sort of museum of old rigs and he have them refurbished and jump them with the vintage canopies inside like: Para Commander, Volplane, paraplane, Paradactyl, Double keel Paradctyl...name it. I even gave him an almost unused container /harness Green Star made in the seventies in perfect condition. For refurbishing some very old canopies, he has the cooperation of several canopies manufacturers.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Andre,

Quote

I even gave him an almost unused container /harness Green Star made in the seventies in perfect condition.

If it is a Green Star Express piggyback rig then I recommend that he/you/anyone do not jump it.

They had a design flaw and a number of people were killed on them; one guy at a dz that I jumped at.

JerryBaumchen

[gjhdiver 0]

Quote

Would I be ripping myself off for buying this?
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/detail_page.cgi?ID=75426;d=1

Is there anything wrong with an old, but slightly used container? Do they just become non jumpable after a certain time or what?
I'm sure I look like a dumbass with these questions, but gotta learn somehow..

It's got a Rascal 202 in it. That's not only a big parachute, but the company that made it, FTS, went out of business many years ago. That reserve may well be approaching the age when most riggers will refuse to repack it. Either way, you'll be stuck with it forever, as you'll never sell it on.

An AAD for this rig will be more expensive because it will require two cutters. That's something else to consider.

There's nothing wrong with a Racer, I jumped them for many years, but unless you are living in or near one of the packets of the country where they remain popular, you'll be stuck with it, and you'll also be stuck looking for a rigger that has experience of packing the reserve in them.

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Hi Andre,

Quote

I even gave him an almost unused container /harness Green Star made in the seventies in perfect condition.

If it is a Green Star Express piggyback rig then I recommend that he/you/anyone do not jump it.

They had a design flaw and a number of people were killed on them; one guy at a dz that I jumped at.

JerryBaumchen

Hi Jerry~

The 'design flaw' on the Express was how the reserve risers were sewn into the harness assembly...from the manufacturer the system was fine, it wasn't until a number of people cut the stitching near the harness/back-pad to make it more comfortable/fit 'better' did the situation present itself, that stitching is also what held the reserve risers to the harness.

I remember one for sure, possibly two fatalities in the Midwest
happening.

It wasn't a 'bad' rig for the time, just got a bad rap because mods were made without understand the consequences...just like the 'Force' container back in the 80's...a well made low cost piggyback that got a bad rap when a GK competitor re-tacked the reserve cable housing closer to the loop because he didn't think it looked right, so far away...pin jammed after a cut-away and rode a total to impact.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Jim,

I am going to give you my personal observation of these rigs & then what I have 'heard' about them. Some of this will be nit-picking so don't get mad.

Quote

The 'design flaw' on the Express was how the reserve risers were sewn into the harness assembly

The design flaw was actually how the loops of harness webbing was sewn into/onto the harness. The actual reserve risers then attached to this/these loops with a connector link.

Quote

from the manufacturer the system was fine

What else would anyone expect him to say? Yea, I know, snide remark.

Quote

a number of people cut the stitching near the harness/back-pad

As I remember the rig ( going from memory here ) the loops were sewn with a standard 4-point stitch pattern. Then the comfort pads were sewn to the harness at this same location using 5-cord; this stitch pattern went around, to the outside of the 4-point stitching, in a box stitch pattern.

The mfr. used the argument that this extra stitching, to hold the comfort pad in place, was part of the stitching necessary for the assembly to be safe. IMO, no one knowledgeable would look at how the harness was built and come to that conclusion. IMO ( again ), they were trying to defend an indefensible situation.

Now for the personal observation and the 'what I heard' stuff. The first time that I saw how that harness was built at this location ( the failure location that caused the deaths ) I thought that it was a real nutzy design and simply was not safe ( and, sorry, but I do not remember the specifics of that stitching any longer ). I let it go due to the fact that the rig had been TSO'd and that I had nothing to be concerned with.

Later, many years later, I 'heard' that the mfr. had originally obtained his TSO for the rig with it being a harness & chest pack ( I do know that their conventional rig was on the market long before they introduced their piggyback rig ) & then they submitted a Minor Change to the FAA for the piggyback configuration without any testing.

Everyone should understand that a Minor Change is undefined within the FAA; I have never read anything that defines what is a Minor Change & what is a Major Change. As a friend ( now retired FAA employee who worked in the Seattle ACO ) once said to me "The TSO C23 (x) standard is the most confusing standard that the FAA has to work with." And he meant that because of this whole Minor vs Major Change thing. He once said that if it's not a Major Change then it's a Minor Change & if it's not a Minor Change then it's a Major Change. How's that for being definitive?

BTW, I'm currently on Minor Change (-8) for my container & Minor Change (-7) on my harness.

As I said, some of this is what I know ( from what I actually saw ) and some is what I've 'heard.'

Hope that this helps and always good to talk about all of this stuff. Learning is a good thing.

JerryBaumchen

[billvon 2,400]

>Everyone should understand that a Minor Change is undefined within the FAA;
>I have never read anything that defines what is a Minor Change & what is a
>Major Change.

Yep. IIRC, the modern-day Micron (with Skyhook) is considered a "minor change" from the original two-pin Wonderhog, and thus has not gone through new TSO testing (although it certainly went through other testing.)

[airtwardo 6]

As I said, some of this is what I know ( from what I actually saw ) and some is what I've 'heard.'

Jerry~

Yeah, that's what I'm going on as well.

I do remember seeing one that had the risers 'Box-X'ed in place with as you described the pad 'Box'-ed over the top but in a larger pattern...

Regardless...were there any incidents on those rigs that hadn't been modified?

I use to jump with a guy that had one and loved it, 'because' the reserve was a 'front mount' on the back...which of course it really wasn't.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[ScottyE 0]

Josh I just bought a 91 Racer container off of the forums I told him I didnt want the Old Cirrus reserve that he was selling with it and I got it for 250 dollars 550 cu in Main/ 500 reserve XL harness which was just what I was looking for

I washed it ,had my rigger inspect it and they found a couple things that need attention. Needs new cutaway handle /cables and a reserve grommet that needs replacing the colors are ugly pink and violetbut I'm sending it off this week to Suzie at the Jump shack to get those items corrected plus some updates(you can get riser magnets for 100 bucks)

I say if the harness will fit and the container hold the canopies you want Try to talk him down on price and put a new reserve and used main in it

If you cant get someone at skydive city to pack your reserve Billy the rigger at lake wales will do it and wont charge you extra as long as your reserve isnt too big for the container

[pchapman 261]

Quote

Regardless...were there any incidents on those rigs that hadn't been modified?

Jerry and then airtwardo added a level of detail not generally mentioned in the Green Star Express debate. I'm also interested in whether any unmodified ones failed.

Was it the lack of confluence wrap that made the Green Star Express reserve riser attachment particularly weak? (Plus angles that could lead to peeling?)

Was there a precedent for the kind of construction that they used or were they just trying to minimize weight and cost?

Generally we are now used to reserve risers being at least partially integrated into the harness, but was it ever different? E.g., belly mount reserve rings being sewn on to the harness, with a confluence wrap? I don't know old harnesses well enough.

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi twardo & Peter,

Quote

Regardless...were there any incidents on those rigs that hadn't been modified?

Quote

Was it the lack of confluence wrap that made the Green Star Express reserve riser attachment particularly weak?

I simply cannot answer those questions. I do have a very good memory of not liking what I saw when looking at how the reserve loops were installed. But the specifics: nope, I can't help; been too many years gone by-by.

Quote

I'm also interested in whether any unmodified ones failed.

That I do not know either. I 'think' that the harness that failed at Sheridan had been 'modified.'

Quote

Jerry and then airtwardo added a level of detail not generally mentioned in the Green Star Express debate.

As I said, it's all about learning.

The really sad story is that the fatality at Sheridan occurred when a local instructor ( who owned the rig & was jumping it regularly ) had it for sale. A rather newish jumper, something in the 20's or so in jumps, took it up for a try-it-out jump. He had a rather minor malfunction on the ParaCommander, cutaway and deployed the reserve at a rather low-speed only to have the one loop peel off.

JerryBaumchen

[Sangi 0]

Why would you want to buy such a fossil?

Buy a modern rig...

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Sangi,

It was a good many years ago; about the time of your birth possibly,

JerryBaumchen

PS) And that comment is not to be negative towards you.

[Sangi 0]

I'm not arguing it wasn't good back in it's days, what I'm saying is why would you want to buy such an old thing when there are so many safer and much better modern rigs out there?

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Sangi,

There are times in life when two people just do not do a good job of communicating with each other. I am thinking this is one of those times.

The incident that I wrote about happened probably 25+ yrs ago. That rig was fairly modern at that time.

Hope that this clears that up for you,

JerryBaumchen

[riggerrob 558]

Hey Sangi,

Don't talk too loudly, because your profile says that you are still jumping a Falcon and Swift Plus. Last time I checked, those canopies fell out of fashion fifteen years ago in Canada!
Tee!
Hee!
Ignoring fossils is the overly-simplified answer I tend to give junior jumpers.
Main canopies older than that tend to be made of F-111 fabric. Okay in its day, but if they are twenty years old, are probably worn out by now.
Similarly, twenty year old main canopies made of ZP fabric open too hard for delicate young jumpers and - if they are any good - are worn out by now.
Similalry, most reserves more than twenty years old were never designed to be loaded more than one pound per square foot. Every year stupid, fat, white men try over-loading old reserves and every year they hurt themselves re-learning old lessons.
Ho!
Hum!
This is like reading accident reports in old issues of PARACHUTIST Magazine ... same accident, different date ...
Ho!
Hum!
Similarly, most containers more than twenty years old probably don't have BOC or Cypres pockets or bridle covers and by the time a Master Rigger sews those on, it costs almost a s much as a ten year old container.
... and I am teasing you!

[riggerrob 558]

Sangi,

Try to understand Jerry's comments in the spirit they were intended.
Sure Jerry is old and grumpy, but he is old and grumpy because he has a lot of scar tissue, scar tissue from doing foolish things when he was your age.
He is trying to share his knowledge so you can learn the same lessons without the scars.
Sometimes we have to revisit mistakes made thirty years ago, to avoid repeating them.

And some of the ramblings on this forum are just grumpy old skydivers reminiscing about when they were young and beautiful. Let them ramble, because they are harmless old men.
Tee!
Hee!

[riggerrob 558]

Ripcord housings should either be too far from the last grommet or too close.

By too far, I mean more than the length of a ripcord pin (Vector, Talon, Mirage, etc.). That will allow the pin to completely clear the loop before it bumps into the end of the housing.

By "too close" I mean the shoulder of the pin should be in the end of the housing (eg. top pin on Racer)before you start pulling. That will prevent the shoulder from snagging on the end of the housing.

One pin length is the worst distance because you are trying to pull the combined friction of the loop and the end of the housing at the same time.

[Sangi 0]

Quote

Hey Sangi,

Don't talk too loudly, because your profile says that you are still jumping a Falcon and Swift Plus. Last time I checked, those canopies fell out of fashion fifteen years ago in Canada!

Yep, you got me there, the canopy still works and the openings are not bad though
I'm probably a complete dumbass, but what are you guys trying to say? I was saying that it's not worth buying something that old and you're discussion seems to be about the container not being good either, so what are you trying to tell me?

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[erdnarob 1]

Hi Jerry, this was not the Greenstar express piggyback, it was a Greenstar with a chest mounted reserve. I had one of those in 1975 and made about 130 jumps on it without any problem. I had my first cut away on it using the one and half shot Capewell. This was the only cut away where I could see the beautiful Strong lopo reserve deployement with a diaper because of my sitting position. I know the problem Greenstar got with their piggyback and if I remember well that put them out of business.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[erdnarob 1]

And ignoring the past condemns you to repeate its mistakes.

Beside that, buying an old rig can be like buying an old airplane. Who is not happy when seeing a Spitfire or a Mustang flying ? Personnaly in my skydiving life I am glad I went thru the most simple ie. a round army surplus parachute (T10) to the Para Commander to the US Papillon, Stratocloud...........and now one of the most aggressive, the Katana which is by the way as soft as a silk if you know how to pet it.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Andre',

Quote

this was not the Greenstar express piggyback, it was a Greenstar with a chest mounted reserve.

I do not understand what you are saying here. Could you explain further; esp. what you mean by 'this'?

Sorry to sound nit-picky but I simply don't understand this post.

Thanks,

JerryBaumchen