Bad experiences with Classifieds

[EirAnne 0]

I have had a couple of very bad experiences recently buying gear on dz.com and am losing some faith in my fellow skydivers. These are not ‘scam’ people, but actual skydivers with dropzones and user profiles that are verifiable. Is this just a co-incidence or is there an upward trend in people using the classifieds to rip other people off?

1. 3 months ago I bought a used Vengeance 97. My old one had over 1500 jumps and I thought that I would get one with half that number and a newish lineset. The canopy arrived and the lineset looked like it had far more than the 100- 150 jumps that were supposed to be on it. After 25 jumps, I got tired of truly horrible openings and gave the canopy to PD to be test jumped. Their opinion was that the canopy had so many jumps (1500+) and so many problems that it was not cost effective to fix it and destroying it would be the best way to go. I tried to contact the owner about the liberties taken in her assessment of the jump numbers etc of her canopy only to have all communications returned as no longer in service.

Unfortunately by the time this canopy had been through the investigation system, I was outside of the dates of making a claim for a refund.

Whilst I do accept that there is an element of risk buying through classifieds, the owner certainly did a number on me.

2. I recently bought a PD 193 reserve through the classifieds on the website. The owner had a reasonable profile and was obviously a skydiver.

The canopy was listed in the Reserves section and when I contacted the owner I told them that if they could confirm that this was a reserve PD193 that I would buy it for the asking price ($525 including shipping). It was all confirmed in writing.

The canopy arrived and lo and behold it was a 7 cell sport main 193. I contacted the owner who was ever so sorry, said he would refund the money and blamed his rigger for giving him wrong advice on the type of canopy he had and how and where to list it.

Haven’t heard from him since, despite multiple emails.

I paid through Paypal, but when I went through their resolution center discovered that they only cover goods that are not received. If purchased through Ebay I may have had some means of recovery.

Thankfully, I also purchased this item on my credit card and am now working through them to get the money refunded. I have retained a full email copy of this transaction and it is pretty straightforward, including the fact that the owner has admitted responsibility. I am still not certain, however, that the money will be refunded and it could take up to 90 days.

Does anyone have any other suggestions of ways of getting money refunded in the event of being ripped off?

Yes I do feel stupid. I was not sufficiently aware of the limits of protection when using Paypal.

[c10edges 0]

Im sorry, there are only a couple of things in life that truly make me snap and thieves are one of them. Luckily i have been 3/3 on items bought on dz.com. I hope you get your situation resolved. As of advice, i got nothing.

[likestojump 3]

hey, sorry to hear about your experience.

I still like paypal, but i alwasy suggest to fund your transaction with a credit card. Basically you are doing a payment by credit card, but the person receiving it is able to accept it without needing a credit card terminal.

I have had my share of similar experiences as well, I believe it's mostly due to people not knowing better, but the trend to pad up (down, actually:) jump numbers and line condition is a big time problem with used gear. I try to ask for pictures when buying, tags, lines, that usually helps.

As far as recourse - chargeback through a credit card. Unfortunately looks like claims involving items "not as described" leave the buyer SOL when dealing outside of eBay..... re http://reviews.ebay.com/SELLERS-BEWARE-PAYPAL-NOT-AS-DESCRIBED-CLAIMS_W0QQugidZ10000000002137211

Lastly would you mind posting (or PMing) the people info who so blatantly lied to you ?

cheers

[EirAnne 0]

I can't post names, I think that is not within the rules of the forum, but will PM you.

[ozzy13 0]

Not that it will make you feel any better. Look what this guy went threw.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3442865;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

I bought a rig when I first started. No problems. I suggest having the seller send the gear to your rigger for inspection before paying. If they are not willing to do so, then dont buy it. IMO

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[likestojump 3]

ok, so what happens when the buyer is a rigger themselves ?

[martlet 0]

Quote

I can't post names, I think that is not within the rules of the forum, but will PM you.

It shouldn't be. There should be a feedback forum, as there are on most sites with a classifieds section, where you can give someone positive or negative feedback.

One site I belong to actually goes a long way towards helping you resolve issues such as this, and if it is not resolved to their satisfaction they will lock the offending parties account. That doesn't help them much, but it keeps others from falling victim.

In cases of fraud, they'll also post the party's name and address.

[EirAnne 0]

I think when you post negative comments and name names, then it should not rest on the opinion of just one person; like feedback does, especially if that person is the injured party.

A third party, with no vested interest (moderator) would be required to examine a complaint of foul play and create a black list of buyers or sellers. This person could then no longer do business on dz.com. Whether those names were then published is another matter.

We pride ourselves on having a unique community where we can rely on a certain level of honesty (I am not just kidding myself am I?) How then do we protect our group from a small number of people who choose to exploit this without creating huge overkill?

[ozzy13 0]

Quote

ok, so what happens when the buyer is a rigger themselves ?

Have it sent to your local DZ. Im just telling you what I would be willing to do on the internet, To protect myself as a buyer

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[ozzy13 0]

Quote

A third party, with no vested interest (moderator) would be required to examine a complaint of foul play and create a black list of buyers or sellers. This person could then no longer do business on dz.com. Whether those names were then published is another matter.

This would be cool. Something like what eBay dose. A customer feed back or scoring system. I guess it wouldn't be third party though

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[martlet 0]

Quote

I think when you post negative comments and name names, then it should not rest on the opinion of just one person; like feedback does, especially if that person is the injured party.

A third party, with no vested interest (moderator) would be required to examine a complaint of foul play and create a black list of buyers or sellers. This person could then no longer do business on dz.com. Whether those names were then published is another matter.

We pride ourselves on having a unique community where we can rely on a certain level of honesty (I am not just kidding myself am I?) How then do we protect our group from a small number of people who choose to exploit this without creating huge overkill?

How it works on the site I mentioned is something like this:

All positive feedback, buy and seller, isn't moderated. It just gets tagged onto their name.

For negative feedback, there is one forum that you post in, stating why you are leaving that person negative feedback. The moderators contact both parties and try to facilitate some resolution. If the the person submitting the negative feedback establishes a legitimate complaint, and it isn't resolved, the negative feedback is then attached. If it's resolved or the moderators determine negative feedback isn't warranted, then the thread is just deleted.

If negative feedback is applied, then the person's account is often locked.

This helps not only due to the negative feedback, but also the positive. If I go to purchase something on there, and I see several transactions resulting in positive feedback from this person, the transaction will often go easier due to less conditions or restrictions on the purchase or sale.

[ozzy13 0]

That seems like a lot of work for the people that run a free forum if you ask me.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[martlet 0]

Quote

That seems like a lot of work for the people that run a free forum if you ask me.

Why? Moderators are made up of members. I'll bet if they asked for volunteers, they'd get quite a few.

Besides, the vast majority of transactions are positive, requiring no moderator involvement.

[ozzy13 0]

Quote

Quote

That seems like a lot of work for the people that run a free forum if you ask me.

Why? Moderators are made up of members. I'll bet if they asked for volunteers, they'd get quite a few.

Lets ask!!! Any volunteers???

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[martlet 0]

Me.

Hey look, there's one.

The place to ask would be in the classifieds.

[Ronaldo 0]

I have bought skydiving gear through the net many times. I have used the DZ.com classifieds a couple of times and had problems every time I tried to deal directly with the seller. I gave up with this method and started buying directly from skydive stores (100% satisfaction). Recently, I decided to buy 2 items from DZ.com users but this time I used a respectable skydive dealer as a broker. The user sent the gear to the store and it was inspected by a rigger. After a quick confirmation from the dealer about the overall condition I authorized him to charge my credit card and he sent a check to the owner. Clean, fast and safe deal, everybody was happy.
Unfortunately, you can`t trust people sometimes
Good luck

Engineering Law #5: The most vital dimension on any plan drawing stands the most chance of being omitted

[likestojump 3]

hi Ronaldo :)

the proposed revamp of the classifieds is definitely a good thing, but unfortunately it is very costly and I doubt people would want to pay for it, and I doubt even more that NameMedia would want to foot the bill. I do my part deleting all the scam ads, that's my volunteering part.

BSBD

[taylor.freefall 0]

Quote

I have had a couple of very bad experiences recently buying gear on dz.com and am losing some faith in my fellow skydivers. These are not ‘scam’ people, but actual skydivers with dropzones and user profiles that are verifiable. Is this just a co-incidence or is there an upward trend in people using the classifieds to rip other people off?

1. 3 months ago I bought a used Vengeance 97. My old one had over 1500 jumps and I thought that I would get one with half that number and a newish lineset. The canopy arrived and the lineset looked like it had far more than the 100- 150 jumps that were supposed to be on it. After 25 jumps, I got tired of truly horrible openings and gave the canopy to PD to be test jumped. Their opinion was that the canopy had so many jumps (1500+) and so many problems that it was not cost effective to fix it and destroying it would be the best way to go. I tried to contact the owner about the liberties taken in her assessment of the jump numbers etc of her canopy only to have all communications returned as no longer in service.

Unfortunately by the time this canopy had been through the investigation system, I was outside of the dates of making a claim for a refund.

Whilst I do accept that there is an element of risk buying through classifieds, the owner certainly did a number on me.

2. I recently bought a PD 193 reserve through the classifieds on the website. The owner had a reasonable profile and was obviously a skydiver.

The canopy was listed in the Reserves section and when I contacted the owner I told them that if they could confirm that this was a reserve PD193 that I would buy it for the asking price ($525 including shipping). It was all confirmed in writing.

The canopy arrived and lo and behold it was a 7 cell sport main 193. I contacted the owner who was ever so sorry, said he would refund the money and blamed his rigger for giving him wrong advice on the type of canopy he had and how and where to list it.

Haven’t heard from him since, despite multiple emails.

I paid through Paypal, but when I went through their resolution center discovered that they only cover goods that are not received. If purchased through Ebay I may have had some means of recovery.

Thankfully, I also purchased this item on my credit card and am now working through them to get the money refunded. I have retained a full email copy of this transaction and it is pretty straightforward, including the fact that the owner has admitted responsibility. I am still not certain, however, that the money will be refunded and it could take up to 90 days.

Does anyone have any other suggestions of ways of getting money refunded in the event of being ripped off?

Yes I do feel stupid. I was not sufficiently aware of the limits of protection when using Paypal.

I find it absolutely incredible that you of all people bring this subject up. I tried to buy a rig from you myself, that you advertised on this website. I offered you your full asking price on a complete rig and you then told me that the price had gone up by a further $200.
To cut a long story short - you were very rude, and only after I threatened to publicly display our emails did you then start to be diplomatic.
I don't know you and you may very well be a genuine/nice person. I can only judge you by the interactions that I have had with you.
Since our dealings I have purchased from a few people on this website who were/are more than a pleasure to do business with.
I apologise if this post seems wrong to you but, like I say, I can only judge you from the dealings I have had from you.

[EirAnne 0]

Without going into this in great detail, this was one of the early transactions that I did when I first began buying and selling gear back in 2007. I reread the transcripts of this particular transaction before replying to this thread. The whole correspondence was mired by misunderstandings and suffered greatly from being conducted long distance via email. Myself and the buyer could not come to an agreement on the end price of a piece of equipment listed for sale; which was clouded by after market add-ons such as an AAD and rigging which were not part of the initial posting.
I could have made the transaction much simpler and clearer upfront and this would have prevented the misunderstandings that arose. A simple phone call would probably have worked wonders! I eventually chose to remove the item from the classifieds and re-listed at a later date with additional components at a higher price.
No money changed hands, all items were as described and I do not accept that there was anything dishonest about the correspondence. However, that being said, this was not my finest moment in customer relations. On-line disagreements rarely produce satisfactory outcomes. I would like to think that I learned a lot about how not to do business from this and that most customers that I deal with these days have a positive experience.

I would like to make the distinction that the initial thread was posted to address fraud and theft through the classifieds.

[zap49 0]

Use an escrow service such as escrow .com , they act as a middle man and hold onto the funds until the buyer has received the item and had time to inspect.
It costs a small amout compared to what it can save you it is a safe way to go paypal sucks out of ebay

[davelepka 4]

Quote

I recently bought a PD 193 reserve through the classifieds on the website. The owner had a reasonable profile and was obviously a skydiver.

The canopy was listed in the Reserves section and when I contacted the owner I told them that if they could confirm that this was a reserve PD193 that I would buy it for the asking price

Did you ask for a serial number?

For starters, you could have checked it against the various stolen gear databases.

Also, I'm pretty sure that all PD reserves will have an "R' in the serial number. A 193R would have a serial number like "193R1234".

Even if I'm wrong about that, you could call PD with that serial number to confirm the model and DOM.

[druvaughn 0]

Sorry to hear about your experiences, and hope that this isn't a "growing trend".

I have had 3 expereinces and all have been positive (I certainly hope the others felt the same). I have bought 2 used rigs (incl main/res/etc) and sold a main. All 3 went well.

I did in 2 cases use a rigger as an "escrow" agent to ensure neither party got "ripped off" the third I met them at the DZ after setting up the sale on line.

Hope you have some luck, my expereinces were all good, and I wish the same for you.

Best,
Dru

-
-
"Baseball is 90% mental. The other half is physical."

[jumpwally 0]

and thats fine, im glad you do what you do. Can i add some suggestions ?

1-Only accept ads with serial numbers included (pics of the number )
2-Year gear was made
3- Pic of Gear- Canopy etc.
4- Pic of container ,along with the size of person it
will fit.

Requesting the seller to be more accurate with his info will go a long way to making things smoother

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[regulator 0]

Now I know why I want to buy brand new gear!

[stitch 0]

Quote

Use an escrow service such as escrow .com , they act as a middle man and hold onto the funds until the buyer has received the item and had time to inspect.
It costs a small amout compared to what it can save you it is a safe way to go paypal sucks out of ebay

Escrow.com seems like a good idea, but I've only had not so good experiences dealing with them on skydiving gear. I recently tried to use this service at a sellers' request. As per Escrow.com rules we both agreed to the terms of the sale. But when I tried to load the funds with my visa, Escrow.com refused the payment. Stating that they had no way of determing the products value. Then insisted on only accepting a bank draft. There was nothing wrong with my card. I paid the seller by PayPal a few days later. Escrow.com was just to much of a hassle.

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"