Sabre 170 slider pocket specs?

[bliston 0]

A customer would like me to add a pocket to his slider for a hard-opening original sabre 170. I made some of these 10 years ago, but didn't keep notes on design specs. Any suggestions for dimensions, construction/design choices (support tape placement or other), or any other thoughts would be welcomed.

Thanks,
Ben

Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

[masterrigger1 2]

Ben,
A domed slider is a better option on the Sabre.

Pocket sliders are a easy enough thing to make but they have some issues.The domed slider does not.

Also another point, modifications can only be done by a master rigger.
Installing a pocket slider would be a modification.....

BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[mrbiceps 0]

putting a bigger slider on it is an excellent option as well. i had the same problem with a monarch 215 that opened like a bastard. i put a slider on it that was 50% bigger than the original one and it worked unreal. much better openings now.

[dragon2 0]

Quote

putting a bigger slider on it is an excellent option as well. i had the same problem with a monarch 215 that opened like a bastard. i put a slider on it that was 50% bigger than the original one and it worked unreal. much better openings now.

Careful with that advice, a bigger slider can also lead to HARDER openings.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[mrbiceps 0]

I have heard this advice from a few people. I spoke to my rigger who says he has had maybe 20 clients over the years approach him with early model sabers and monarchs complaining of brutal openings. The saber manufacturers recommended a bigger slider to fix the problem. My rigger told me that putting bigger sliders have fixed the problem on all of his previous clients. So i was fairly confident that this was the way to go and it worked great for me.
I really wasnt concerned about harder openings as i didnt really believe that a canopy could open any harder than mine was doing to me already.

[pchapman 262]

I don't work in a big rigging shop or anything so I don't know any "right way" to build a pocket. I just made something up.

But here are some pics of two I built and one someone else did.

Differences exist in whether the center sewn down point of the flap is supported by a lengthwise or crosswise piece of tape.

Also there is one set of rough plans available on dz.com from '03. Search "slider pocket" and "rigging65". He cut the flap material flared wider, so that when folded and sewn, it bulges to catch air more reliably. It seems a sound idea but making everything squared off works too.

[bliston 0]

Spoke to PD, they recommended (after being sure that all their other packing guidelines like PC type, line stows were met and trim was checked) to move to a 26"x31" slider - original size was 19x31 and they changed to 23x31 in later models.

I imagine that keeping the span dimension consistent prevents harder openings with a bigger slider - if the canopy was allowed to expand laterally right out of the bag with the slider up, it would make sense that the nose of more cells would be exposed and inflation would speed up.

While I made a handful of them years ago, I'm going to hold of on making one for this guy in light of Mel's reminder that it's an alteration (and there's no Master rigger in country to sign off on it).

Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

[mnskydiver688 0]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought modifications can be done by a senior rigger on any piece that is not a TSO'd component. This means mods done to the container have to be done by a master rigger, however this is on a main.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[DeNReN 0]

Correct me if I am wrong....but a non TSO'ed main can be worked on by your 6 year old niece....

[JerryBaumchen 1,068]

Hi DeNReN,

Quote

Correct me if I am wrong....but a non TSO'ed main can be worked on by your 6 year old niece....

Some people argue that it has to be a Master Rigger.

I argue that who's to know?

JerryBaumchen
Master Rigger

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought modifications can be done by a senior rigger on any piece that is not a TSO'd component. This means mods done to the container have to be done by a master rigger, however this is on a main.

Incorrect!
It has been discussed here in depth on several occasions. Do a search and you will find several discussions.

The main problem is that everyone "thinks" that they may do that type of work legally.

In reality, they cannot!...unless you go with the theory "who's gonna know"!!!

The owner may do minor maintenance...

Senior riggers can do minor repairs....

Master riggers can do minor and major repairs along with modifications.

The only difference between TSO'd gear vs a main is authorization.

The TSO'd stuff needs either FAA or the manufacture's approval (or Both)

The main needs no approval, but still needs a master rigger to do the work.

This is will be a topic by the FAA at the PIA this coming year as I hear it.

BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[SStewart 13]

Hi Mel,

DeWolf made me two pocket sliders and they both have performed flawlessly. Nice, soft, on heading openings. What issues are you talking about?

Onward and Upward!

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

DeWolf made me two pocket sliders and they both have performed flawlessly. Nice, soft, on heading openings. What issues are you talking about?

Scott,
We made pockets sliders in the very early 90's to tame the Nova's hard openings. Then later for the Monarchs and Sabres.

If the pocket is made a little long, the pocket flaps against the lower nose area and creates wear.

Another issue is sometimes the pocket inflates and goes between the line groups, causing really weird openings.

The domed slider does everything good that the pocket slider does and more without any of the above issues.

The "more" consists of keeping the canopy/slider centered during deployment. (more on heading)

It also is WAY more consistant that the pocket slider.

The only reason pocket sliders are still around is that they are very easy to manufacture and install.

I personally would rather take the extra 30 minutes to make a domed slider for my stuff.

BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[mrbiceps 0]

Quote

Spoke to PD, they recommended (after being sure that all their other packing guidelines like PC type, line stows were met and trim was checked) to move to a 26"x31" slider - original size was 19x31 and they changed to 23x31 in later models.

I imagine that keeping the span dimension consistent prevents harder openings with a bigger slider - if the canopy was allowed to expand laterally right out of the bag with the slider up, it would make sense that the nose of more cells would be exposed and inflation would speed up.

While I made a handful of them years ago, I'm going to hold of on making one for this guy in light of Mel's reminder that it's an alteration (and there's no Master rigger in country to sign off on it).

you may even be able to go a bit bigger. my original slider was 24 x 27 my new one was 33 x 30

[mnskydiver688 0]

The pockets depicted in the pictures seem a bit excessive. The mod done by a MASTER rigger to my Sabre 150 is much more minimalist. A length of 3 inch wide binding tape is sewn to the front of the slider and then doubled over. The open side of the fold faces toward the center of the slider. It has made a world of difference. Also it doesn't add any noticeable bulk and does not interact with the nose of the canopy at all.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[pchapman 262]

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The pockets depicted in the pictures seem a bit excessive. [...] A length of 3 inch wide binding tape is sewn to the front of the slider and then doubled over.

Good point. I've seen such pockets too. One presumably worked well, while another did absolutely nothing significant according to the jumper (but it was a bit of an unusual canopy).

One pocket I built for myself ended up being too big, so I sewed a portion of the mouth closed. But it was easier to build big and reduce, than to start small and find I had wasted my time on a pocket that didn't work.

I'll accept others' experience that things like a new larger slider or a domed slider may be superior, but a pocket can be sufficient. I had a customer who was literally going to dump his canopy on the bonfire but was happy with it after I added a pocket.

At the extreme opposite end of the wide-tape-pocket, there's the two foot long slider pocket on my Parafoil that during packing goes outside the canopy roll and wraps around it, and looks like a Superman cape when the slider is stowed behind one's head after opening. With that "flag" slider pocket, I have no problems going to terminal, unlike some other Parafoil jumpers. (I think the pocket is susceptible to line burns and it perhaps has some negative effect on overall opening reliability.)

[mnskydiver688 0]

Well the rigger also said that if the pocket in the front didn't work one could be placed on the tail end of the slider and if necessary the sides also. In my case I only needed the front.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[hackish 8]

Last weekend I did a test jump on a sabre 150 where the local rigger b (master rigger) had fabricated a larger slider. A canopy that previously had a tendency to slam people opened beautifully. I've only jumped the canopy a few times before and it never smacked me but the openings were very brisk.

I believe the design and sizing was recommended by Gary Peek. You may want to look him up and see what experience he has to contribute. In our case it seems to have worked.

-Michael

[jamiem 1]

I jump a sabre 1 150 with a pocket on the slider...and it is awesome. Of course i've only put like 60 jumps on it, but have not even come close to a hard opening yet.