Sticky middle management

[skymonkeytdyes 0]

I need some help with a job offer I got last week. It's for a middle management job that requires a rather rare skill set that I have and I'm already in-house doing tech. writing. It's an aircraft company where we modify landing gear into amphibious floats for twin otters and the like.

For the 1st 6 months I would be setting up and then integrating with other departments a new software program that will streamline the whole system. Also during that 6 months I would be working with the FAA to create from scratch a re-occuring training program for certifying our 25 odd mechanics in the shop for certian aircraft.

I have turned down the job once already because it will entail some really irritating admin. paperwork for the maintenence dept. and lots of customer service and they were'nt willing to offer me an assistant eventually to take over that part of the job.

Now they are willing to offer me an assistant and agree to a time limit for that hiring (6-12 months from now). Plus when I walked into the president's office, he told me, "What do I have to give you to get you to do this job?"

I have a cake job right now that I like but is not very difficult and I kinda run my own show, so I hate to leave it for more stress for nothing. So what should I ask for for a salary upgrade considering I'm a double major with 10 years in the field, already in-house with a rare skill-set?

You say, what's that sound coming out of the hole in the wood?

[j0nes 0]

with 10 years experience, does having 2 majors make a difference? (i'm not trying to be a smart ass)

[skymonkeytdyes 0]

Perhaps not, but maybe because the majors are so different and they create the specialty.

I have an aircraft mechanics rating, the 10 years of experience is in that for general avaition and also a BS in Aircraft Technologies (not engineering).
The 2nd BS is in Tech. Writing and PR.

So the culmination of these two different fields are why they want me to move from Tech. Writing into a middle management for the maint. dept. and set up these systems. What I need to know is a general idea of what this kind of thing is worth so I know what to tell them in our next meeting.

You say, what's that sound coming out of the hole in the wood?

[gemini 0]

I'd find out what similar positions pay in other companies and then ask for 2X including doubling the paid time off. Remember it will be necessary to get a way and jump more often to relieve the stress!

If they really think you are the person for the job, they will pay what it takes to get you in the slot. Most people will not ask for what they think they are worth and later regret not asking for more.

The last time I did it, the owner said "Well that is a lot higher than I was planning, but if you agree to come in at 1.5x and do the job, I will give you 2x at the end of 6 months. I agreed and six months later I got the increase I really wanted and a year end bonus on top of that.

Don't be afraid to ask for a reasonable, fair market price for your work.

Good luck.

Blue skies,

Jim

[wmw999 2,121]

And remember that you're helping to set the market price for the next person with the same question. When they call you to find out, make sure they know what you did for them

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[skymonkeytdyes 0]

I've done some looking on the internet, and my preliminary idea is to ask for 50% greater than what I am making now and to stay on hourly since I have no idea how many hours this will take. The ask them to base my salary after 12 months on my hours.
Is that a usual thing?

It looks like the title that best describes what I would be doing is Special Projects Manager.

Any other advice?
P.S.
I was going to post in the women's forum as well because I will be working with a group of men who I have watched play gender politics with other women here. I'm guessing I'll have to learn all kinds of tactful ways of telling them to go screw themselves.

You say, what's that sound coming out of the hole in the wood?

[Broke 0]

You know a lot of guys I know have no problem working under a woman as long as she knows what she's talking about. Recently at my work location a female was promoted to a much bigger management position than what she had, and a ot of the guys hate working under her because she dosen't really have a clue as to what they need to get thier jobs done. For instance the carpenters don't even have a miter saw or even a miter box, and one time he put an order in for a 6 foot level and got a 6 inch level... big difference.

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[wmw999 2,121]

Sometimes mistakes that women are made are attributed to their being women, and mistakes that men make in the same style are attributed to their being idiots.

The second is much better. That's the problem is that if you don't want to reflect poorly on all women/blacks/asians/hispanics/frogs then you have to be good all the time.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[skymonkeytdyes 0]

I appreciate that and have the experience required to do the job so the guys under me are not really my main concern, but thanks anyway.

More it would be about the two men I would now be equals with, and mostly because there is a history, here that I have witnessed, of pushing boundaries with regards to duties and work load. Just something I would have to be mindful of as I think about taking the job.

You say, what's that sound coming out of the hole in the wood?

[wmw999 2,121]

Don't be afraid to stand your ground. If you do it early on something (relatively) meaningless, then they're less likely to push when it matters.

Don't be nasty about it, just decide ahead of time where you have some give and where you don't. Your ability to see where they're likely to push is something of an indication of your understanding of the job. The readier you are for it, the more likely you are to anticipate things as they start to happen.

I only know this because I suck at it

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[SickMonkey 0]

I think you should dominate the universe for millions of dollars plus stock options.

[bob.dino 0]

Sounds sensible, but ensure you get it in writing.

I also like gemini's idea of extra paid leave.

[skymonkeytdyes 0]

About getting it in writing, should I actually ask for something like a contract? Is it commonplace to try to get more paid leave during negotiations?

You say, what's that sound coming out of the hole in the wood?

[skymonkeytdyes 0]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, sickmonkey.
I have considered world domination before, too, but I was thinking I might need two assistants for that. Interested?

You say, what's that sound coming out of the hole in the wood?

[wmw999 2,121]

It's certainly not uncommon. My brother asked for it (and got it) with his latest job. Make sure that you either can use it, sell it back, or keep it over the year end if you request it -- paid leave that you lose at the end of each year is a cheap thing for them to give you, and worthless to ask for.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

About getting it in writing, should I actually ask for something like a contract? Is it commonplace to try to get more paid leave during negotiations?

Hi Ellen - This is a long one, because you're family.

Get it all in writing in a signed contract. This should happen anyway. Researching other companies for the base salary is a good way to baseline the value of the position. Then you can see if the pay is worth your change.

1 - Do you have visions of climbing high in this company? Then find a way to make it happen. You have the reputation, apparently, of being a 'go to' person. This would confirm that and go a long way to better career choices in the future.

2 - In a GOOD company, the transition from hourly to salaried has benefits - but you do earn them. Despite what the hourly people generally think, you'll put in a ton of time in a salaried position. It's about doing what it takes to get a project done, not just putting in time and collecting the paycheck. Expect more hours. Expect to answer calls on the phone at home. Expect weird hours if not long ones on occasion. Expect to have to trust others to do the work instead of you directly. Asking to start hourly and with overtime in a management position (instead of just establishing a salary up front) just implies you aren't serious about the project, you are more serious about the money.

3 - If this company has stock, a program manager or senior program manager is ususally eligible for decently priced incentive stock options. You should ask HR about what's normal for management in terms of vacation, stock, etc. Compare to other companies with similar positions. (I'm a senior program manager, you can call me if you'd like, but the industry is different)

4 - If this project and position don't spark your interest, then DON'T TAKE IT. It's a mistake to do a job that you aren't happy about. Especially if you are currently happy. That said, happiness isn't about minimizing your hours, it's about doing something you are jazzed about. The best jobs I've ever had were usually ones where I put in the most hours - because I was interested in it and the time FLEW by. The cushiest jobs (my last one) had little effort or challenge, I went home at a decent time every day and I hated it because it wasn't fun (edit: er, the job, I liked seeing my family more). Don't let time commit drive your decision, let job satisfaction do it.

5 - Gender considerations are only issues if you choose to let it. Be a great leader (man or woman) and don't fake it and you'll get respect. Start off confrontational on that issue is a mistake. Get the best people on your team and let them do their jobs. Your position is likely to make sure the program is organized and maintains momentum. Do that and make sure your team members don't have roadblocks and you'll be the favorite program manager in the company to work for (and the most productive).

6 - Workload balancing is a big deal between managers. Everyone always has more than they can handle and everyone thinks the "other" manager could take some of it -normal human nature. It's less likely these other two managers take advantage of each other than they just are trying to establish who can handle what. Much more goes on in management than the hourlies know. Give them the benefit of the doubt, take what you can handle, take a little bit more, and push back what you can't handle in a professional way. If it really comes down to conflict, the best way is to get everybody's workload defined and put it in front of the bosses and make them decide how to split up duties. Then if it's too much, it's too much for all 3 of you and the recommendation is to either hire another or drop some projects. Likely you are that new hire needed to balance the increased workload. Don't alienate your new manager couterparts - find a way to work with them - they are likely decent guys trying to get the job done and your best mentors as you get 'up to speed'.

7 - Wendy noted to pick something minor on to set boundaries right away. I think that's a huge mistake and not professional. Pick your battles when they are WORTH picking. Be professional and don't let emotion EVER come into play. If unresolvable, then that's where bosses come into play, not hard confrontation. (emotional reactions to work conflict is NOT a gender issue, it's just a bad response for any level in a company. Resolution and clarity is ALWAYS the answer. If there is a conflict, lay it out objectively, find the issue and fix it or elevate it - adding any emotive content is a mistake in my company that mostly occurs with men for that matter. If you are the one to bring FACTS and DATA forward while others just bring perception and complaints, you'll win 90% of the battles - real or political.)

8 - I know you personally, you are perfect for a leadership position. People will willingly work for you because you are attentive, professional, and care about getting the job done - much value has to accrue to your positive attitude and happiness factor. You will also care about the people on your project and make it personal that they are important to the project and the company. It's a powerful thing. Don't let any stereotypes about leadership, gender, office politics drive you. Just be yourself, be honest, be motivated, listen, and act and you'll absolutely kick ass.

9 - one thing going from a worker bee to management. It will change the way you have to deal with the other worker bees. It's not a bad thing, but at that point, you represent the company to these people. It's important to always remember that. That day, random grumbling, etc just can't happen because no matter how lowly placed you are, as a manager, your 'opinions' are now perceived as 'policy' by many who the other day were just your co-workers. It's a different relationship dynamic. But can be subtle if you do it right (it is really about respect for the direct employees, not protecting the 'fat cats', but that discussion is for speaker's corner and the cynical). But you best friend from the old days will 'say' you are the same Ellen as before, but he will listen to your opinions on policy, etc with a different ear and he won't even know it. Be aware.

The only question is do you want to take the opportunity because it will be good for you?

Bill

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[skymonkeytdyes 0]

Thanks, Bill. You said a mouthful, but it really made sense to me in this situation.
I do want to climb in this company and there's a lot of opportinity to do it in the next couple of years. I guess I was being a little cool about the new duties and projects because I didn't want to get too invested in case they turned down my offer. But they do interest me would really challange me, fostering the growth of some new and worthwhile skills.

Ive been very honest with the Pres. about my hopes conerning starting a family, so I'm flattered that they offered it to me despite that. I have made it very clear that I like the company and the people I work.

The company is still family owned, so no stock options, but I will do some research today about salary.
I'm not sure if I could go to the person in payrol and start making requests about management vacation time without arousing a lot of gossip, so I think I'll just ask for an extra two weeks or something like that.
And I think your likely right about the gender stuff. Maybe some of my opinions were based on what I have heard other women say who aren't management and I should keep a more open mind instead of expecting the worst.

I have been able to maintain a very professional relationship with everyone here so far so I'm starting out this position on the right foot at least.
I appreciate your high opinion of me and I really do feel like I'm finally ready for something like this. It's funny that you would respond this morning, when I was talking to eric about it last night, he told me to call a couple people to ask about this, yourself included.
Thanks Honey.

You say, what's that sound coming out of the hole in the wood?

[rehmwa 2]

PM sent - can talk anytime you want - call Kim, we are having a party Saturday night also (4 birthday's and Halloween all in one).

1 - Family - lots of companies can foster working part time from home. My company has a great system for getting on line from home. Program Management is typically friendly to these arrangements to some extent. Your goals to be a great mom don't have to be inconsistent if the company can support it.

2 - One thing bothering me about the responses in this thread is a position to suck as much 'bennies' as possible from the situation (here, the 'fat cat' is really just a family owned business, likely not some corporate hog exploiting his workers). Simple things like vacation time increases make sense as salaried employees will work extra hours but don't get extra pay (overtime), so that's a good justification. Salary expectations should be presented compared to industry baselines - then you ask for some amount over that because you have already been trained and there is a benefit to that (I recommend anywhere from 10 to 15% added) - the idea someone mentioned about a medium raise during a 3 or 6 month probationary period followed by the 'rest' of the raise is a FANTASTIC tactic which I've used (it netted about a 30% raise over 6 months in fact - and weathered a salary freeze because it was in agreement before that). But it's all presented as facts and has a baseline justification that makes sense. With this approach you can usually get agreement to a very good deal and both employer and yourself leave happy. In otherwords, don't get greedy, but don't sell yourself short - you have to do the homework to know where the line of fairness ends. (but always go right to that line and press a bit). Most people don't do the homework - that's the major difference between the 'real thing' and the 'pretenders'.

There's so much more. Too bad the DZ is closed for the season. This is definitely a serious sit around the campfire conversation - at least 4 beers long if not more.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[skymonkeytdyes 0]

I did a little looking on Monster.com's vault, but there wasn't a whole lot of information and also I'm still not actually sure what kind of job title to look it up under. Like I said, the Special Projects Manager sounds the likliest so I'm trying to find similar things. Are there any other places where I could find some more information about industry standard salaries?
What they are currently calling the job is Maintenence Coordinator, but my idea that I'm pitching is to eventually give those admin. duties to a new hire and keep the maint. dept. marketing, and special projetcs, and also keep my tech. writing and website duties. Partly because I really like what I do, now and I like some of the duties of the new job.
Plus they don't have anyone to do the tech. writing and web work I'm doing now and could do from home while being a parent so I don't want to lose those duties.

You say, what's that sound coming out of the hole in the wood?

[rehmwa 2]

1 - setting up and then integrating with other departments a new software program that will streamline the whole system.
(try IT Program Development Manager - others here will have a better idea of the correct title - try writing to Aaron and Johanna and asking them - this is pretty close soundling to analogous to Aaron's job)

2 - working with the FAA to create from scratch a re-occuring training program for certifying our 25 odd mechanics in the shop for certian aircraft
(call Goz and ask him - he has experience as a supervisor of aircraft mechanics and might have an idea of what PM process developers make)

look up both jobs and baseline to the more expensive job - likely the software development leader

I'd say that it would be somewhere in between a lead process writing engineer typical salary in this area and a full fledge system software team manager. Especially if you will have either direct employees or actually are the team lead for at least a half dozen employees in a matrix management scenario then definitely the full blown 1st level manager. So general IT program manager (1st level management and team lead) positions are what you'd compare to. my GUESS only

I'd throw out a ball park estimate, but I don't know your industry, just mine. Typ Special Program Manager positions can range from the high 30s to six figure salaries depending on the industry. So that doesn't help much.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[skymonkeytdyes 0]

To all who helped, I have my 1st meeting with the director and manager of Maintenence this afternoon so we all can talk about our concerns. I'm a little nervous about it but trying to remind myself that I have a lot of options here and I'll be fine.

I didn't have a very good night last night and also the Maint. Manager got pushy with me yesterday and tried to get me to talk with him right at the maint. counter with people walking by and everything, which I thought was really unprofessional since a meeting was set up. I hope that's not an indicator of what the job is going to be like.

Wish me luck, please.

You say, what's that sound coming out of the hole in the wood?